Alternative shelter system - small footprint

[MartinFarrent]

A Micro Tarp from www.backpackinglight.co.uk, paired with the Sea-to-Summit Nano Mosquito Pyramid - about 400g including (sensible) stakes and a carbon pole. The tarp covers a six-foot person to the belt - so it needs to be combined with a waterproof bivy. If you use a spacious and truly breathable one made of Goretex or Event, you'll end up slightly heavier than with a tarptent. The advantage is flexibility in finding a site, because the combination doesn't demand much real estate.

Not necessarily ideal as your standard shelter option, but good as an alternative one if you need something a) totally stormproof (depending on the bivy), b) easily set up when floor space is confined, and c) flexible enough for various climate zones. Combined with a military bivy bag (heavy, but truly breathable, waterproof, durable, tolerably comfortable and spacious) you end up with about 1.35 kilos... which is considerably lighter than a four-season tent and arguably more comfortable than a hooped bivy in most situations. Just use the bivy as a groundsheet when no rain is expected, or use the bug net to stave off irritation in an open hut.

[clydeone]

I appreciate the thought - but wouldn't a full A-frame tarp like a Mountain Laurel Design Grace Tarp + their Bug Bivy be a lighter solution?

[Smithhammer]

2.35 kilos = almost 3lbs.

"Totally stormproof?" I suppose if you're going to hide in your bivy and suck nylon till the storm passes. But if you've ever spent an extended amount of time in a bivy in a storm, it's a less than ideal experience. The thing I've never understood about partial tarps like that is - what do you do when the wind/rain change direction?

Sure, 4-season tents can be very heavy, but that is really the opposite end of the spectrum for comparison. The only time I have taken a 4-season tent on a bikepacking trip was in the middle of winter at 7000'. I have no issue with making some comfort sacrifices in exchange for a significant weight decrease, but I have to be honest - I can think of many shelters that offer significant;y more effective wind/rain protection for far less than 2.35 kilos, including my Nemo Apollo with a carbon pole that weighs 1/2 that (incl. 6 ti stakes) and offers 57 sq. ft. of covered floor area.

[MartinFarrent]

I appreciate the thought - but wouldn't a full A-frame tarp like a Mountain Laurel Design Grace Tarp + their Bug Bivy be a lighter solution?

Perhaps, but an adequate full-length tarp for use without a bivy would take up more floor space. As I said, this isn't my standard outfit - I have a Lunar Solo tent. This is for situations when you want to find a spot fast and pitch fast, but know that a tent or large tarp will complicate the job by demanding too much space. That could be high up in the Alps or in dense hilly forest or close to civilisation... experience will tell you when it makes sense.

2.35 kilos = almost 3lbs.

"Totally stormproof?" I suppose if you're going to hide in your bivy and suck nylon till the storm passes. But if you've ever spent an extended amount of time in a bivy in a storm, it's a less than ideal experience. The thing I've never understood about partial tarps like that is - what do you do when the wind/rain change direction?

It's 1.35 kilos, not 2.35, @Smithammer... the weight depending on your choice of bivy, and I have chosen one of the heaviest for the protection, breathability, durability, relative comfort and space it offers.* Additionally, I nowadays always cite real-life weights based on a fully staked-out system with a realistic selection of stakes, with a ground cloth if I see the need, with a carbon pole etc.

I agree that the combo would be awful in a real storm, comfortwise - but it's doable and safe all the same. And that's what I was looking for - a small-footprint system to handle any kind of weather, but also one that is relatively comfortable in *most* types of weather. If the wind changes and heavy rain blows in, you'll just have to close up the bivy some more, and you might even have to close it completely in extreme cases. But rather more commonly, that won't happen and the rain will fizzle out instead.

It's not a weight-saving solution (in fact, it's some 380g heavier than my usual system using the Lunar Solo). It's for specific demands - or rather (in my case), for an unusually broad spectrum of demands on a single trip. Think of a tour taking in the French Alps at really high altitude in the summer, then descending through the Provence hills to the Mediterranean. One part of that trip would be best with a totally bombproof, pitch-anywhere system in case of freak heavy weather - whereas you wouldn't want to spend the rest cooped up in a mountaineer-style tent or a hooped bivy.

Also consider that I'm talking about Europe - the Alps or the Pyrenees - and not the remoter areas of the Rocky Mountains. I might venture out bargaining for trouble, but I needn't plan to sleep outside if trouble were a complete certainty. Very few regions of the Alps and Pyrenees are millions of miles away from civilisation.

(Side note: Obviously, you could do something completely different with the tarp and bug net if you were expecting nothing but warm, dry weather. For instance, you could take a Terra Nova Moonlite bivy in case of unexpected rainfall and keep it close to you at nights. I have one of them, too. Mine weighs some 180g in the old version, and I don't like it (far too cramped). It does require a ground sheet, adding about 120-140g of Tyvek to your pack. But if that were your preference, overall shelter weight could be brought down to roughly 700g.)

To be honest, I had been looking at that Micro Tarp for a few years - it started out as a MYOG page on the same site, recommended for use with a military Goretex bivy like mine. I couldn't see much sense in it... and then, all of a sudden and given a few pertinent experiences, I started to realise what it could be good for. Bug protection was the missing component after that (now solved for 90g).

Does my thinking add up a bit better, now?

_____

* I've looked into a few of the part-eVent bivies, and some seem to offer substantial weight savings over mine. But when I factor in all the modifications I would want - e.g. long zippers and extra space - and the possibility of needing an extra ground cloth to protect my NeoAir, the gram advantage starts to dwindle pretty fast. Added to which: The German army bivy I own comes with a completely adjustable head area via a waterproof zipper down the middle - you can close it to any degree you want. It is also extremely wide at the top, so you can actually lie on your side with your head *next* to the central zipper, leaving an opening to breathe in and out of in all but the most obscenely horrific conditions. So it seems the ideal bivy to use with this tarp - entry from either side, rather than the top, being an additional advantage. Not to mention the price difference: You can buy these Goretex bivies second-hand, but unused, for around € 60.

[Smithhammer]

Thanks for the further explanation, Martin. Certainly different situations, and less remoteness, than I am used to. I'm still a little sceptical about describing this setup as "totally bombproof for any type of weather" though I suppose you can get through a short-lived storm with just about anything, and obviously endurance racers go ever more minimal, though they also cut their margins pretty thin. But you keep comparing it to a 'heavy, mountaineering tent' - why not just take a lighter weight tent that would offer more coverage, be more aerodynamic in the wind, protection for your gear if you wanted/needed to bring it inside, etc? Trust me - I've spent a lot of time under tarps and in bivys (incl. winter weather), and they are great when I'm mostly expecting mild weather, but for an extended tour I don't see how this, as a heavier option, with less coverage, offers much of an advantage. But I suppose a lot of it is preference, and if it works for you and you've tested it out in the weather that you expect to experience, that's all that matters. Have a great trip.

And correct - 1.35 kilos. Typo was my bad. Weight conversion still adds up to almost 3lbs.

[Hayduke]

I use the same 18 oz. Hennesy silnylon hex tarp I use on my hammock. The hex shape and large size rigs in a multitude of ways, open and airy or closed, with one tree or branch support or just a flipped bike. Lots of room to stretch out laze away rain showers haha

[MartinFarrent]

I'm still a little sceptical about describing this setup as "totally bombproof for any type of weather" ... But you keep comparing it to a 'heavy, mountaineering tent' - why not just take a lighter weight tent that would offer more coverage, be more aerodynamic in the wind, protection for your gear if you wanted/needed to bring it inside, etc?

I'd trust my Lunar Solo tent in storms I wouldn't like to experience with one of the freestanding UL offerings from MSR or Big Agnes... and it's markedly lighter, too. It offers plenty of room and I love it. But it requires quite a bit of real estate to pitch, and I'm sure a real monster storm at high altitude could present a problem. This bivy, on the other hand, would only be uncomfortable... and not even as uncomfortable as many, because it's truly huge. I last used it about five years ago, but I could easily accomodate my backpack in it then - and I travel lighter now. Just throw it on the ground wherever you find a bit of space for it. Additionally, I now use a waterproof backpack anyway.

So if I'm out to break the rule of 'climbing high, sleeping low' this wouldn't be the worst choice. It would offer me security for, say, two or three days in a 10-day trip - while the tarp and the bug net would afford me comfort for the rest. Once again: French Alps right down to the Med... that's my usual summer highlight. With any luck, I would never need to fully close the bivy at all - but it would be possible, if I needed to. Most of the time, I would probably just sleep on top of it.

Thing is, my French tours are planned months in advance. I can't just go by the weather. My wife and I reserve our holidays and find accomodation on the coast, which would be difficult at short notice. Then I take the train (from Germany) to my tour's starting point and meet up with her 10 days later. I'm looking at bypassing the Alps and taking in the equally high Pyrenees, next year... Cevennes, too (and I have felt cold on the windy summit of Mont Lozere in high summer, as relatively low as the Cevennes might be).

So stormproof and even snowproof equipment is something I might actually need... but it needs to be a summer configuration at the same time. Yeah, I have got by fine with my tent in recent years. But there were also experiences I chickened out of because of the weather prospects.

[bikelite]

Nemo Hornet 1P for me. Or their mid.

[MartinFarrent]

Nemo Hornet 1P for me. Or their mid.

Looks nice - especially the width. In my opinion, that's where UL tents need to be less greedy - and many of the newer ones are. On the other hand, it might be too short for me. And that is one of my pet peeves: Manufacturers seem to be achieving UL weights by using ever thinner material (which is okay, depending on where you want to use the equipment), but also by limiting length - which contradicts a clear biological trend. In my opinion, a really versatile shelter ought to be somewhat narrow, but not too short. Same goes for commercially available flat tarps. Ideally, 4m x 2.3m (pitched as an A-frame) would provide total coverage in wet and windy conditions with no need for an additional bivy. Instead, you commonly get 3m x 3m, which offers less protection for roughly the same weight.

[Smithhammer]

...In my opinion, a really versatile shelter ought to be somewhat narrow, but not too short. Same goes for commercially available flat tarps. Ideally, 4m x 2.3m (pitched as an A-frame) would provide total coverage in wet and windy conditions with no need for an additional bivy. Instead, you commonly get 3m x 3m, which offers less protection for roughly the same weight.

Hmm....I wonder if some of that is the European market? In the States, a 12'x8' tarp (4m x 2.4m) is a fairly common size, available from a number of tarp manufacturers.

As far as UL materials, I would agree that some of those materials (like cuben fiber) achieve UL weights by also sacrificiing some durability. But silnylon is significantly lighter than 'old school' coated nylons (not quite as light as cuben fiber), and is still pretty durable, assuming one takes care on where/how they pitch it.

I look forward to hearing about your trip - please post a report.   

[MartinFarrent]

I look forward to hearing about your trip - please post a report.   

I haven't scheduled any longer trips until the summer, @Smithhammer. But there will be shorter ones in the meantime (though skiing is my winter priority). I should really post some pix of where I normally camp - both here in the wooded lower mountains I can easily reach from Bonn; and in Austria, Switzerland and France (where all my longer tours have taken place). But I rarely take many photos on tour - and I almost never  photograph my camp sites.

In my experience, we bikers are at a disadvantage when it comes to finding adequate camping spots in problematic areas. While we cover more ground and therefore ought to see more opportunities than hikers, we are usually too busy to do so. That's why narrow seems so important to me - and I think that's why so many bikepackers settle for relatively heavy and confined hooped bivies, even though they aren't racing and might want a bit more comfort.

Also, some very mysterious law of nature seems to say that a suitable flat spot will often be more than adequately long, but rarely generously wide. Don't ask me to explain that.

Re the materials: I personally prefer silnylon for the price and durability. I don't see much of a problem with increasingly thin silnylon - as long as people realise the limitations of thin material. I was in a big store looking at a few of the UL double-wall tents a couple of weeks ago. The freestanding properties of offerings like the Big Agnes 1P Flycreek UL and the MSR Hubba NX should not - in my opinion - mislead customers into thinking that these tents would take a really excessive beating in an Alpine storm particularly well. I think my SMD Lunar Solo would fare much better due to its single-pole design and thicker material (and it's lighter, too). But the Flycreek and the Hubba do boast a more modest footprint, which I would often find nifty.

Freestanding capabilities are overrated, imho. I just use this stuff to attach loops to rocks if staking is a problem. Since I have never bought it in the UK and am no gardener, I have no idea what it's called in English.

[MartinFarrent]

P.S. @Smithhammer: Differences between the US and western Europe would make a very interesting topic. The advantages and disadvantages of proximity to civilisation are just one example - e.g. supplies being less of a problem, but natural water resources a somewhat bigger one (the chance of pollution, especially due to agriculture). Scandinavia aside, perhaps, I also see differences in terrain. For instance, a long and flattish dirt-road tour would be very hard to route (so we mostly stick to mountains, which is fine my me). Then there's the lack of a substantial cottage industry - meaning that we either buy what dealers here decide to import or order directly from the USA, paying all sorts of taxes and duties and not even knowing whether the product meets our expectations (but we're in for a lot of hassle should we decide to return it). Oh... and added to all that, wild camping is not entirely legal in most countries. You can almost invariably get away with it by exercising some common sense, but a fire (including a hobo and even an alcohol stove) is a very bad idea unless you can afford to pay exceedingly stiff fines. For me, it's gas - always, even on short trips. Having seen a forest fire at close quarters near Marseille once, I don't even disagree with the sweeping bans on anything else.

On the plus side, of course, I could be sitting outside a fine restaurant in a French mountain village in July, finishing my coffee after a three-course meal and just about to head again out in search of a camp site before sunset. :-) Which might just be another reason for wanting a fast-pitch, small-footprint shelter... though possibly not a 'legitimate' one.

Granted, looking at Europe in its entirety, we have much the same climate spectrum as you - which includes the same chances of getting bogged down in never-ending rain. When it happens, I agree from experience, you'll have a much nicer time in a tent. But it's worth adding that we will often be in areas that allow us to chicken out for a night or two and hide in a hotel - hope you appreciate the honesty, if not the spirit. ;-)

This bikepacking thing having originated on your side of the pond, I think a lot of Europeans make an understandable mistake by emulating US setups to a slightly unthinking degree. I see pix of fatbikes loaded with all the state-of-the-art bags as if for an Alaskan expedition... then read that the trip went to the Black Forest in August. Oh well, at least those bags would suffice to ship cuckoo clocks wholesale...

[offroute]

I'm with SmithHammer – I'll never depend on a bivy bag for anything beyond keeping me alive.

A small, coffin-style tent with a pole around the shoulders and a bug net is the best combination of stormproofness, bug pro and small footprint. It needs not even be staked or guyed, can be set up in the rain without disaster. This one has worked well for me (might not assuage the gram counters): http://blackdiamondequipment.com/en_US/tents-and-bivys/bipod-bivy-BD810210GRENALL1.html

Shove your helmet down inside the foot to create some loft.

[MartinFarrent]

I'm with SmithHammer – I'll never depend on a bivy bag for anything beyond keeping me alive.

The Goretex bivy I plan to use is 100cm wide at the shoulders and 70cm at the foot. It has a central zipper, allowing you to open the head area to any degree you like and to enter easily from either side. The additional tarp covers me to the waist. So, in normal weather including rain without excessive wind, I have *lots* of head room and can move quite freely. My bivy weighs in at 950g and the rest of the setup costs 400g, so my solution is (alas) significantly heavier than yours. On the plus side, I have more room and probably more comfort when the weather is tolerable or better.

You can view the bivy here, where the weight seems slightly overstated: https://www.asmc.de/Camping/Schlafen/Schlafsaecke/Zubehoer/BW-Schlafsackhuelle-GORE-TEX-oliv-p.html

As I keep saying, this system isn't meant to be my standard shelter (my SMD Lunar Solo hasn't been demoted). It's not best at anything - weight, comfort, livability in a storm etc. (though footprint is its strongest point). There will always be a much cleverer alternative for any single set of conditions out there. But I think it may shine (modestly) when a trip takes in a broad spectrum of very diverse conditions.

[offroute]

Power to you for experimenting with options, Martin.

You still aren't swaying me on a bivy bag with no poles (or stiff wire, a la Bibler/Black Diamond, at a bare minimum). Smitty said "sucking nylon"...that's a pretty good assessment of what happens in a bivy bag when it rains. How do you keep the rain out while letting air in? Usually that's done in a sitting position with one's head overhanging the opening. Laying down, a 2" storm flap simply isn't going to cut it. If you want to live through a storm, good bivy bags rock. If you want a restful night of sleep to continue bagging successive big days, it's the wrong tool for the job.

Weather is most often just too fickle where I bikepack to say with any certainty that it won't rain on a given night, and I'm often disconnected from any forecast for days at a time. I sneak in a tent-less night here and there, but much prefer to set it up preemptively, in part because it's a double-wall which would get wet inside during setup.

Cheers...

[MartinFarrent]

How do you keep the rain out while letting air in? Usually that's done in a sitting position with one's head overhanging the opening. Laying down, a 2" storm flap simply isn't going to cut it.

I think the tarp would make enough difference in all but the most adverse wind+rain conditions - you would at least be able to keep your head outside the bag and sleep, obviously closing the zipper progressively if rain started to blow in too far. If a real storm rendered the tarp totally useless, it would be full closure for sleeping... a miserable state, agreed. But due to the enormous width, I can actually lie to one side of the central zipper. And if I roll on my side, I can then do some ventilating without letting water in. Of course, in a monster storm, that would only work while I was awake and in control of the opening... oh well, every blessing counts. ;-) But as long as the tarp functioned at all, it would be pretty comfortable that way because I'm a side sleeper anyway.

Additionally, you can use the size of the bag to eliminate any need of a hoop, because a lot of gear will fit inside - so you can keep the fabric off your face with the help of your pack, boots, helmet etc.

Overall, I think it would take some thoroughly evil weather to render this setup totally uncomfortable - and it would still be safe, even then. Question is: How often will that occur?

Weather is most often just too fickle where I bikepack to say with any certainty that it won't rain on a given night, and I'm often disconnected from any forecast for days at a time.

Even in the Alps, I'm rarely without internet access for long nowadays - hence rarely without a local forecast. It probably makes a huge difference.

[MartinFarrent]

Update: I have now purchased a Terra Nova Discovery bivy for an incredible € 79 (as opposed to 299) - sold commercially, but very slightly used. If the weight given by Terra Nova is correct, this will bring the entire system down to just over 1 kilo, making it just very marginally heavier than my UL tent set-up (SMD Lunar Solo, Tyvek footprint, pole, a sensible selection of stakes etc.). I think the Tyvek ground cloth will be advisable for durability with this bivy, and the dealer (who seems very competent) agreed with me on the phone.

So I'll try it out. Mind you, even it it works as well and as flexibly as I hope it will, I'd still agree with offroute and Smithhammer - a tent will generally be your better allround solution and need by no means be heavier or more expensive. Especially if you add up the full prices of the components I now intend to use: approaching € 480! But I have strong reasons for wanting precisely this system as my alternative option.

Incidentally, Gore-Tex Flo2 seems to be about the same material as Event, which is encouraging. See here: https://backpackinglight.com/forums/topic/2789/

[MartinFarrent]

Update 2: The Terra Nova Discovery bivy fits me, a regular-sized NeoAir XLite, a long Phantom 32 and some gear. I can lie on my side and even wear a down jacket without compressing the sleeping bag. Importantly, there is also plenty of room to use the sleeping bag as a quilt in warm weather or push it aside completely. Under the tarp, I can keep my head outside the bivy and be covered to my belt. The weight was overstated, according to my scales. The bivy weighs 520g. The bottom is tough enough to be used without a ground cloth - but I'm going to use one anyway, bringing the total weight penalty of the set-up to 60g, compared with my tent (1030g to 970g). That's including sensible stakes, the pole etc., but excluding bags (which would be the same in both configurations).

Pitching the tarp first in rainy weather, you can set everything up without getting the sleeping bag wet.

In dry weather: Set up the tarp and bug net, put the NeoAir in the bivy and lie on top. If it starts to rain, you can be inside the bag within 20 seconds.

[MartinFarrent]

Update 3: The new bivy provides a lot of extra warmth, even open. I tested it by turning the heating down in my living room, reaching 17°C. With my MHD Phantom 32 used as a quilt, it was verging on too hot.

In high summer near the Mediterranean, I would possibly often wear long (or even short?) underwear and push the bag aside completely, just relying on the bivy for warmth.

Depending on the weather forecast and altitudes planned, I might also pack a quilt. I have a Sea to Summit Ember 1 that I don't see as a regular feature in a tarptent, but which seems a very comfortable and unfiddly solution in the bivy. It weighs just 410g - 270g less than my Phantom 32 in Large. Seen in that light, the system might sometimes even be a weight-saver after all (by about 210g).