Any room for a road rider in the mix?

[WalksOn2Wheels]

I've been poking around the site for a couple of months. I know it's primarily a mountain bike crowd, but I thought it would be fun to jump in any way.

I've been commuting since the start of last semester and looking at doing some touring. But the more I do, the more I gravitate away from racks and panniers to a rackless setup. Mostly because of my lightweight backpacking background. I'm looking at dropping some money on a Talon 22 pretty soon and for longer trips I'd like to get a nice seatbag and maybe fab up a handlebar bag for my sleep system.

But for now, I'd just like to be on a forum that doesn't insist I should be riding with panniers.

[Done]

What, are you saying that my bright-green panniers aren't cool?!?! Everyone should get a pair!

[r.stephens]

I'm in the exact situation. I have a cyclocross bike that can handle offroad as well as road riding, but i don't want to run racks/panniers on it. I already have an Osprey Talon 22 pack and plan to use that or my REI Flash 18 which is even more minimalistic. I'm looking to either make or buy a seatbag and handlebar bag/harness soon and be able to do some offroad trips as well as simple road touring down the California coast.

My bike set up has enough seatpost rise to use one of the Revelate seat bags, but I think their stock sized handlebar setups might not be optimal for use with road handlebars. I've seen some pictures out there of guys with that style bag and road bars though so I know it's possible. I may give it a try myself - my wife does have a pretty solid sewing machine setup here and with her help I may be able to make something workable.

In addition to needing different bags compared to backpacking, another issue I'm having is that my shelter is a BlackDiamond Betamid which is designed to be set up using two trekking poles. One can also just hang it from a ridgeline, but I'm a little uneasy about hitting the road with it and hoping that I always camp where there are trees I can use. But I also don't see the point of carrying poles on a bicycle. So I either have to buy another shelter, or come up with a solution. Three ideas I've had so far are: carry collapsing trekking poles and use them on the bottom of the seat bag to give it a "frame" of sorts; fabricate some sort of poles that could possibly be lighter than trekking poles and use those in the seat bag the same way; use the bike itself to prop up the tent (it fits inside and still could sleep two, but flipped upside down on it seat/bars the wheels are only 40" off the ground and the tent poles are usually 52" - it would probably still work fine in mild conditions where the exact shape of the shelter needn't be optimal, but in rain and strong wind it wouldn't work well.  The easy solution is to just buy another shelter system, but I'm resisting that as long as possible!

[caseygreene]

I honestly don't know why more road tourist do not ride with an ultralight (or semi ultralight) setup.

I suspect its twofold. First, i dont think the terrain and surface conditions force road tourist to go ultralight. They can get by with heavy-ass loads on a nice paved climb where they couldnt on some steep gnarly singletrack.
The other thing is when i talk to people on the phones here, they do not even know the option exists, and sort-of write it off because they havent seen others using it.

That being said, there are road tourist who are using Carousel/Relevate style bags of which i saw a number of them in our office last summer. They kinda where in 2 different camp though. Some of them were going ultralight, and some of them were supplementing their already enormous pannier/rack/trailer setup with more space to carry stuff in the form of a frame bag and/or trunk bag!

[WWOOF]

Yea im in the same boat as well. I have a road bike that I commute to campus with and race on during the collegiate racing season.  But as of late I have been planning a bikepacking trip of sorts - two friends and I are preparing for riding the C & O Canal and Great Allegheny Passage (rail trails from DC to Pittsburgh) over spring break.  Cross country riding has always been much more appealing to me than racing since all I did in high school was mountain bike, and I've been dying to get off of the DC area's horrible roads. 

At first we were thinking about all spending hundreds of bucks on racks and panniers, but after countless hours spent on the internet we heard about the Great Divide Race and somehow stumbled on this awesome community of ultralighters, and it was at that moment that we knew how we would be touring.  All I am going to use is an 8L dry bag on the handlebars, a camelbak mule, and both a top tube and seat bag.  I can't wait for this ride, and and feedback or recommendations would be greatly appreciated.  Maybe I'll get my act together and post my personal setup and my friend's once they get their gear straightened out. 

r.stephens-I am having the same problem with my tent as well. I have a Kifaru Supertarp which is designed for pitching with hiking poles.  I am either going to just bring my hiking poles or see if I can mod some telescoping poles from an old tent to be stiff enough to support the tarp, as a good pitch requires a lot of tension over the fabric.

[WalksOn2Wheels]

r.stephens, I know I've seen some adjustable carbon poles somewhere that weren't actual trekking poles. Just poles intended solely for tent use. I can't remember where exactly, but if I come across it, I'll post a link. I think I've also seen some DIY projects on places like backpackinglight.com

Yeah, when I first started talking about touring, I checked out a lot of resources and my mind was just blown by the amount of crap people insist on dragging along. I even read one journal on crazyguyonabike where this couple purposefully went on a trip that included a 5 or so mile long road with hills hitting 12+% grades and they started with a weight of bikes+gear+stuffed camelbaks at 114 pounds each.  

For me, the real tipping point was when I decided my seatpost mounted rack was swaying a lot and I tried to go for a more traditional hardmount rack. Without getting into all of the details, I came to a point where I realized my seatpost rack+empty panniers weighed almost 6 pounds alone. I then attached a lighter rack to the stays using p-clamps and strapped a backpack to the rack. Then the first day with this setup, the bag nearly fell off right when I got to school. So I just threw it on my back and rode like that the rest of the way to the gym. The difference in the ride was HUGE. The backpack probably weighed maybe 15 pounds max, which 99% of the people on bikeforums.net will insist shouldn't make any noticeable difference at all. I've gone back and forth between strapping it on the rack and just wearing the backpack and I'm really starting to love how the bike feels unloaded.

I figure with a bag to mount the sleep system on the front and a seatbag for the shelter+clothes, I should be able to keep the bike pretty balanced for long trips. Backpack can be for food+stove+other camping essentials.

[WalksOn2Wheels]

r.stephens and wwoof, I found what I was talking about. They're actually aluminum poles:

http://www.lightheartgear.com/LightHeart_Gear/Accessories.html

Top of the page. 40 bucks seems reasonable and would be better than dragging along full on trekking poles. There are some pretty good tents on that site as well.

[bmike-vt]

I use Revelate bags on my rando / road rig. Works really well... but I still need to streamline some gear...

[r.stephens]

Thanks for the link to those poles! They look to be stouter than regular tent poles and at 8.5 oz. they are lighter than the lightest trekking poles. Seems most adjustable aluminum trekking poles come in at around 20 oz. and then you can get down in the 16 oz. range with carbon (and your wallet will be lighter, too!).

I did find Black Diamond has a new 3 piece (with shock cord) aluminum trekking pole called the Distance that weighs in at 12.3 oz. which is great, but for those of us who don't need actual functioning trekking poles, the 5-piece pole you posted is 25% lighter and $60 cheaper and more compact when broken down.

[allonespeed]

The topic of "lightweight-touring" is something I wish I had give some thought to before making my way across country last year.  I went on a manner that others who saw me called "crazy..." since I was carrying the basics (and riding single speed, too...) 

As anyone who's researched bicycle-touring overall knows, there are countless pictures of bikes OVERLOADED with just about everything you can think of - all while touring throughout the US (where there's no shortage of anything...)  Too, the fall-back rack/pannier combo has done a lot to play down the light weight route, as I think people buy the racks/panniers FIRST then fill them with way too much; rather than finding lightweight goods (tents/bags) and then find the proper (lightweight) way to carry them.  Very few of the pannier manufacturers make "small/lightweight" panniers.

Fortunately, Adventure Cycling has joined in support of the cause, at least beginning to, with its offering the CDW seat-back bag, etc.

Anyway, this is a good question:  so, add me to the list of converted road-riders.

[wdlandparker]

I like all this conversation on racks vs. rackless, and i totally agree on being as minimalistic as possible. However, for me having a rack on my bike(29er fixed gear) is more practical, for I can carry as little(summer) or as much(winter) as I NEED to. Also, if your bike is often used for utilitarian purposes, A rack is the way to go, I for one do not want to ever carry a chainsaw or tools in a backpack, or risk ruining my $100 plus seatbag with them.

[r.stephens]

Just a follow up on the Black Diamond 3-piece trekking poles I mentioned above. They responded that for pitching tents/tarps they recommend the "distance fl" instead because the plain "distance" i mentioned isn't adjustable so it's hard to adjust tension on your tarp from inside, where as the "fl" model still breaks down into 3-pieces but also has some sliding adjustability. They are $119 and 15 oz.

I think I might be trying the poles from light heart gear.

[rperks]

For the guys looking at poles that may serve other purposes, take a look at:

http://www.click-stand.com/

It looks like they come n different gages to suit your needs.

[WWOOF]

wdlandparker- Yea I definitely see using a rack as a great way to allow your bike to transition between on and off road applications. I would probably get one if my bike had eyelets.

And the light heart gear poles definitely look stiff enough for our applications.
click stand might work as well.

[WalksOn2Wheels]

Well, just picked up my Talon 22 today. Loaded it up with my usual commuter setup and rolled around the parking lot a little bit. It's miles better than my other standard book bag I was using. The old bag had wide straps that were set far apart and pulled on your shoulders and a really flat back that would create one little pressure point when my laptop was in the laptop sleeve. That and it bounced a LOT. The Talon doesn't budge or bounce and I could even feel a slight breeze down my back with the mesh+ridged panels on the back.

But even better, I'm sure I could incorporate it into a touring setup. All I need is a stuff sack to mount my sleep system on the front and the tent I plan on buying should be able to strap right into the seat/seat post like a standard seatbag.

I'm excited about the summer! Maybe I can slip something in during spring break...

[frejwilk]

A few thoughts here from someone who's probably done as much conventional road touring as 'bikepacking'.

First off, I fully agree that light weight will make a huge difference to the nature of a road tour. And most road tourists are probably not going to see this as easily as bikepackers do.

That said, there is an extensive ultralight BACKPACKING community online. www.backpackinglight.com is a good place to start looking for smaller manufacturers offering camping gear along the lines of Revelate and Carousel bags. This kind of gear (vs traditional major manufacturers) is going to offer options to save much more weight than just switching from racks to soft bags.

Here's a link with a few pole options http://gossamergear.com/shelters/shelter-accessories.html . The longest pole I saw was 49", but they only weigh 3oz (each) if they worked for that betamid.

Like others have posted, I also think racks are a good option for road tours. Especially rear racks. Current off-road bikepacking setups have evolved as much toward light weight as they have toward backcountry durability and technical riding. Rack durabilty is never going to be as big an issue on the road. Weight distribution and aerodynamics are probably going to be as important to the road tourer as the 'close-in' weight advantage the soft bag systems offer for off-road tourist / racer.

The lightest racks only weigh a few ounces more than popular bikepacking seatbags. Some advantages to packing gear on a rack are always going to be convenience and (better) ability to carry bulkier (but still light) items. Like sleeping pads or food.

Traditional road touring handlebar bags really are a worthwhile piece of gear. Probably the most useful 'road' specific item vs the bikepacking stuff.

Another thing to consider is that most road tours are probably planned more along the lines of a traditional (I hate to say auto) 'road trip' than a backpacking trip. Slightly different gear is always going to be a priority for each. At least until multiple self-supported road races take off...

FW

[r.stephens]

Good post. I was actually looking at my bike today and I was also thinking that maybe a traditional handlebar bag is the best solution for a road bike after all. With the road bars, you lose the advantage of the revelate/carousel type harness with the wider dry bags, so we might as well just use a traditional sized/shaped handlebar bag. A seatpost only rack wouldn't be terrible, but I do like the look of bikepacking style seatbags better for whatever reason.

[WalksOn2Wheels]

I'm not exactly anti-rack in the sense that I will always look down an anyone using a rack vs. a seatbag or whatever, but for me there were various factors involved.

I had to use a seatpost mounted rack in order to get proper heel clearance. I didn't like the way the rack swayed when it had a moderate load on it. It created a very odd bouncing/twisting sensation that ran through the whole bike. I moved to a traditional rack, but had no way to mount it other than P-clamps. I used this for a few weeks and it held up okay, but even with a light load, the rack slid its way down as far as it could and threatened to cut into my new powder coat job, no matter how tight I got those p-clamps down with a rubber shim. That and I had no heel clearance for panniers, so I had to strap a standard book bag to the top of the rack. This is when it became obvious I could just wear the backpack.

And you say the lightest road racks only weigh a few ounces more than the bikepacking seatbags, but you don't mention that you have to throw even more bags on top of that. For me and my panniers, it was a good 6 pounds after getting rid of my seatpost rack and panniers. Of course if you're going lightweight, you're probably still avoiding panniers for the aero advantage and opting to strap things down lengthwise on the rack. And your bags should be a lot lighter than those darn panniers I had. Personally, I think those seatbags just look a lot better. But a rack is still pretty much going to add the possibly unnecessary weight of the rack.

However, if I had a relaxed geometry bike that had eyelets for a rack, you can be sure it would have one. It just makes sense and they are very versatile for utilitarian needs. But for my current two bikes, it just won't work (No eyelets, tight geometry). And using bags that fit both bikes, I have the freedom to choose between carbon or steel depending on my mood for a trip.

Also, road tourers may take a "car camping" approach, but in my opinion, that should be an excuse to carry even less weight. Any good backpacking gear works fine for any camping situation and on the road, you don't have to pack every single meal and plan every last ounce of water. It's the same story in backpacking, but with a much wider margin for error. People say, "It's on my bike, not on my back," and they take this and that and something they may not even need and then try to climb super steep hills with 30 pounds of excess crap.

So I think racks for sure have their place, but for the types of bikes I ride and the type of riding I enjoy, backpacks and handlebar and seat mounted bags just make a whole lot more sense.

And yes, bikepackinglight.com is amazing.

EDIT: Duh, whoops. I meant backpackinglight.com It's a great site. Lots of good reviews and DIY/MYOG threads.

[ArisaemaDracontium]

As for the question of what is wrong with road tourers that they carry all that stuff, I think I have some perspective on that one.  I came to bike touring from a background in backpacking and mountain biking.  When I was gearing up for our 2002 cross-country tour, I did a lot of research and got involved in a lot of forums, etc.  I was going for a, well, not ultra-light but light-weight set-up to begin with and a lot of people just seemed to think that was silly.

Overall, it comes to 3 issues:  First, as WalksOn2Wheels just said, the weights 'on your bike not your back' so it 'doesn't matter'.  I still remember reading up on a woman from MI who took a full-sized wok and a teddy bear on every tour with her.  A freaking wok!  This was a small woman, think about how much farther she could go, or how much more energy she would have at the end of the day if she brought her 60 pounds of gear down to 40.  In some ways touring is a 'counter-culture' which rejects all that is associated with racing.  And so, there's nothing wrong with more weight.

Which brings me to my second point, bike touring is a very traditionalist pursuit.  And what worked best in the 1970's surely works best today.  Mountain bikers and ultra-light backpackers are more willing to embrace new technology in order to make their experience better.  For example the simple hydration pack means you don't (may not) need to carry your water bottles in your frame, which makes room for a frame bag... and so forth.  (I will say however, that touring without a pack on your back, especially in hot weather is soooooo nice.)

Third, there is a very strong 'be ready for anything' attitude among road tourist.  People who ride nothing but paved roads in the United States seem compelled to gear themselves out for a multi-year trek around the backroads of Africa.  I think this is because all of the 'guru's of the sport are long distance riders, and often riders who travel abroad, and so everyone wants to 'be like Mike'.

[r.stephens]

After looking at the standard touring bike handlebar bags out there, and being disappointed with their weight and kind of being overbuilt for the amount of weight I'd want to carry that high up on the bike anyway, I think I might make my own custom handlebar bag.

Interestingly, I have an old small size Timbuk 2 messenger bag that I've used off an on for at least 12 years and it is the perfect size to fit between my campy shifters. I think I will modify it so the shoulder strap can be detached/reattached when needed, then add two loops on the back of the bag to go around the handlebars and perhaps additional loops if needed to stabilize here and there (some are already available on the bag). I can add some stiff thin plastic if needed (either by taking a drive over to Tap Plastics, or cannibalizing some other gear). It could even have additional light items strapped on to bottom or top as needed.  This bag is indestructible, waterproof, is about 11.2L/672 cu.in. in size (and expandable up top), and weighs about 600g/1.3 lbs. and the best part is that it will still be totally usable off the bike as a small messenger bag.

It could store a stove and inflatable sleeping pad (on my shopping list is the Caldera keg stove kit and that crazy Klymit Inertia sleeping pad), and either my Betamid tarp or clothing and then items I need during the ride (since jersey pockets won't be as practical with a backpack on).