Chips and SALSA Deadwood

[Flounder]

Well one thing u guys are not seeing is

Meh. Many of these sentiments have been opined for decades. Long before the interwebnet, guys like me working in shops in the mid 1980s were bitching about Nashbar, and their "mail order" catalogs in everyone's mailbox. As in box for paper mail.

The bike industry evolves for one reason, and one reason alone, to increase sales. Changes in product, or even just color, give consumers a reason to buy again. Just as you as a shop owner rely on repeat sales, so too does the bike industry at large.

To quote my favorite band, "Same as it ever was, same as it ever was..."

[dream4est]

You guys can keep disagreeing with me all u want. I will stick to my guns and say too much variety is not a good thing. The Deadwood is a nice bike, but a regular 29er outperforms it on roads and trails IMO and the 29+ rigid is only something we think we need because they tell us that. I am just as guilty as anyone of wanting one, but I still feel my regular bike just outperforms it in all arenas.

Like I said before YMMV. The shop I work at rents all these Salsa bikes, so anyone can go back to back with regular bikes to see how they stack up. I have found my basic 29er to be better at the Divide and the trails, so I am having trouble justifying a purchase of one.

[Smithhammer]

I will stick to my guns and say too much variety is not a good thing.

Variety isn't some oppressive mandate being forced upon us - it's entirely optional. How can variety be a bad thing in a free market? The good ideas will succeed (gain mass acceptance and strong sales) and the bad ideas won't. That's how it works. You know what else is optional? Every single bike currently on the market. If you don't agree with any of this and you don't like having these options, it's simple - don't buy them.

If you have found something you personally prefer, that's great. Use it and enjoy it.  

Seems pretty simple.

[Flounder]

I remember when everyone thought indexing was stupid. And that suspension was for motorcycles. Disc brakes were going to never catch on, and 29ers were a gimmick designed to sell bikes to tall people. Every evolution of the bike is met with some resistance. Then it's accepted and the next level held with destain until it too is normal. I rather enjoy the progression.

[dream4est]

Well I went out today in 6-8" of powder and rode the Spark. Brands trails in Moab, a relatively flat area with easy to moderate ST. In the snow the trails have suprise rocks that are rounded and slippery. My minions just ate it up breaking trail. I dabbed a bit on deflections and my 1x was not enough gear but I thats the same story on a fat bike.

The Deadwood in stock form would have been miserable and the instant deflections on woodchippers and half knob tires would have been scary. A fat bike with stock cockpit would have been tough to handle. The best bike would have been a 26" bike with 2.5" tires set up techy. You know like they used to sell? Way back in lets say 2011 before social media changed the world.

A FS 29er with 100-140mm travel is so much more versatile than any bike out there today. Tour Divide. Enduro race. Micro hucking. Triple Crown. It does it all. Like say the new Pivot mach429 trail or Yeti sb45c. Or even the shorter travel ones like my Spark. Or longer travel ones like the new Evil the reckoning. The range of my spark for my ability is 23 days in the divide and a 8ft drop. And thats not pushing it 100% thats screwing up in the TD twice and hucking a drop I am comfortable with riding at about 85% my skillset. Imagine my bike in the hands of a real pro like say Tomac in his prime. He would win Norba xc and dh races and huck 10 footers all day and win the Kamikaze all on the same bike. No way the Deadwood has anywhere near the range of a capable fs 29er. No way.

I have an opinion on this. Just like anyone else. IF one already has a good bike these fad bikes are just that. A fad. 3" tires should have actual knobs on them like they did 15 years ago. When those tires were a fad. Gazzi's sucked. So do these 29+ tires compared to a good 29x 2.3- 2.5 knobby in just about 95% of conditions. Like have said 4 times already YMMV.

I enjoy progression too. Bearded hipster bikes are not progression.

[Smithhammer]

Bearded hipster bikes are not progression.

I don't have a beard, and I'm not a hipster. But you know what else isn't "progression?" Cynical, jaded bike shop employees. Maybe you need a career change, or at least go work for a shop that sells nothing but Surly. Oh but wait - they make some bikes with fat tires, so I guess they're just another "fad company" as well.

I'll be sure to steer clear of your shop next time I'm down that way. I tend to prefer shops where the people are fun, relaxed and have open minds.

[dream4est]

Hey man dont act like i speak for a shop just because I happen to be temporarily working for one. U dont like my opinion be a man and just agree to disagree. I can voice a strong opinion here u just dont seem to be able to handle it. The joke was aimed at no one it was a joke.

Once in a while i get this way and tell it like I think it is. If u knew me at all u would realize i have a valuable opinion just like anyone else here. I sold Geronimo Pain cream for 5 years here and there are 100's of satisfied customers. I have helped many riders many times online and in the races.

U just want folks to agree all the time and be all nice. Bikepacking.net could use a little more disagreement.


edit- maybe I should have not posted again after my first counterpoint/opinion in this thread was attacked instead of just accepted as another perspective. I usually dont anymore. Because it always turns into a biggest johnson contest of which I am usually just as quilty as everyone in escalating things. No one is wrong here. It is just differing opinions.

Smithhammer u made the first reply to the OP and I then added my .02. When I felt I had may have gone too far with Flounder I apologized. Back off.

[Smithhammer]

For the record, I have no problem with a difference of opinion.

When I see an opinion I don't agree with, I mostly hold my tongue and move on. Sometimes I say something. In this case, because I find your opinions to be incredibly narrow-minded, I decided not to hold my tongue. You want more disagreement on this forum? Then deal with it.

And by the way, using 6-8" of fresh powder as a "test" for what the Deadwood is capable of seems pretty silly. Just sayin.

[bmike-vt]

Just saying that Tomac rode drop bars. And won.

[Flounder]

No way the Deadwood has anywhere near the range of a capable fs 29er. No way.

I enjoy progression too. Bearded hipster bikes are not progression.

I think this bike shop thing may not be your bag, brother. I also don't think that anyone, including those who designed the Deadwood, are espousing it to be anything other than what it is - a 29+ drop bar frankenbike for touring. You bet it's niche, which is why nobody I know has pitched it as the best thing since slice bread. It is exactly...what it is.

Sooo....you didn't bump your head on that ride today, did you?

[Flounder]

I sold Geronimo Pain cream for 5 years

I have no clue what that sentence means, but I love it. And I'm going to steal it. I just wish I didn't have a wife, because I'd definitely use it as a pickup line to reel in the ladies. LOL

[dream4est]

I see that disagreeing with u guys that this bike is anything more than a gravel road tourer is gonna get ugly. Seems like I have hit a few nerves. With just a differing opinion. I said I was sorry when I felt I was too harsh. Now the line is being crossed Flounder and Smithhammer  u are making some pretty aggressive personal attacks. Weak. 

[Smithhammer]

So you said previously in this thread that you think everyone on here is "too nice" and that there should be more active disagreement. Ok...

But then, if anyone points out the shortcomings in your statements and disagrees with you, as we have in this thread, then it's suddenly a "personal attack" and they better "back off."

Right. I'm done with you.

But I will reiterate that I think the Deadwood is a pretty kick ass bike, and I could see myself having a lot of fun on one. And not just on gravel.  

I sold Geronimo Pain cream for 5 years here and there are 100's of satisfied customers.

I have no clue what that sentence means, but I love it. And I'm going to steal it. I just wish I didn't have a wife, because I'd definitely use it as a pickup line to reel in the ladies. LOL

[dream4est]

Now you are just being rude man. Ok. I get it. Disagree with with someone and insinuate they may not have a neutral opinion was not nice. I apologized. Make a joke at no one in particular and get personal attacks. Cool. Its the internet. You have that right.

[Flounder]

Now you are just being rude man. Ok. I get it. Disagree with with someone and insinuate they may not have a neutral opinion was not nice. I apologized. Make a joke at no one in particular and get personal attacks. Cool. Its the internet. You have that right.

I was just having a little fun. Don't forget, this all started with you asserting that I am a dishonest journalist, so take it all with a grain of salt. And you now see the challenge with "reviewing" anything. It's all so subjective. I have a friend with a Deadwood that never sees anything but flowy singletrack. Another has one that is almost always on pavement and gravel. To the OP, I was merely suggesting that - within the scope of what the Deadwood was designed to do - it's pretty awesome. There's the rub. When you pluck a bike from the box and pair it to a rider, as you do in a bike shop, you have to understand what the bike was intended to deliver, and how that benefits the pair of legs sitting on it.

[banjolawyer]

I love mine. I'm mostly a Surly LHT tourer and commuter, but my first real bike was a Trek Wahoo 29r, and I do try to get out on our local singletrack once a week. I guess I say that to express that I'm not a hardcore mountain biker, not being very skilled, but I do understand what is more vs less technical singletrack.

Since my Deadwood build was completed a few weeks ago, I've ridden most all the 27 miles or so of our local singletrack at Chewacla State Park and continue to do so. These trails do have a good bit of technical sections. And I feel I'm doing a little better on those sections with this bike than I did on my Wahoo. I had become very skittish on the Wahoo due to some bad wrecks, but I'm feeling better on this bike. I'm not sure the term to use to explain it, but it seems easier to roll over rocky rooty downhills than it was before. I don't feel as prone to wrecking. Maybe it's simply the fat tires.

I love the dropbars. It may just be a personal preference, but I really like having 3 distinct positions available. I like to use the drops while climbing, the hoods most of the time, and in the top position when coasting on something smooth and easy. I'm using hybrid mech/hydro brakes, so I really haven't had any problems with braking ability from the hoods.

I've been on 2 bikepacking trips so far on dirt/gravel forest roads and county roads, and have loved the bike each time. It's probably as close as I could get to having an off-pavement equivalent to my Surly LHT, which I've sometimes referred to as a Cadillac.

[dream4est]

I was just having a little fun. Don't forget, this all started with you asserting that I am a dishonest journalist, so take it all with a grain of salt. And you now see the challenge with "reviewing" anything. It's all so subjective. I have a friend with a Deadwood that never sees anything but flowy singletrack. Another has one that is almost always on pavement and gravel. To the OP, I was merely suggesting that - within the scope of what the Deadwood was designed to do - it's pretty awesome. There's the rub. When you pluck a bike from the box and pair it to a rider, as you do in a bike shop, you have to understand what the bike was intended to deliver, and how that benefits the pair of legs sitting on it.

I said basically what you are saying in my first post here. I will go into a little more detail off my one cruise on this bike. I didnt feel it could handle more than easy flowy trails because the there was way too much exposed seapost when fit correctly and the realtionship of that seat height to the bar height was IMO not thought out well and seems to be thrown together and not refined. It put too much weight on my hands and not my feet. So it felt like it pushed a lot in corners. It always looks like to me this bike is too small when fit right. Maybe thats how it is supposed to be and one gets used to it. Not sure I had only one short ride and I havent asked anyone about that from the company.

The guy who bought one from my shop put a layback Thomson and has 12-13" from post clamp to saddle  rails. It doesnt fit him that well IMO. 6' guy on a large IIRC.

edit- measured my bike and compared to a pic of deadwood i rode. my bar height is way higher so it seems this type of bike takes some getting used to. Apples to oranges? I felt the same way on a friends ti grinder but it was too small so I thought that was it. The hoods felt comfy but low for me but for someone who rides say a low flat bar setup the feel may be the same. I guess thats why I perceive the pushing in corners. It takes time to adjust.

[bmike-vt]

Drops need to be higher for single track. You should be in the hooks comfortably, and when the terrain gets rough you should get sucked into the bike.

They aren't for everyone. And it takes more than 1 ride to get them setup right. And you can't translate your MTB size to a drop bar frame.

I set my Fargo up for a compromise - higher than a road position, more like cross.
Full on height was great for techy single track but I used it for more gravel / trail / road all rounder.

Every bike is a compromise.

[Smithhammer]

Drops need to be higher for single track. You should be in the hooks comfortably, and when the terrain gets rough you should get sucked into the bike.

They aren't for everyone. And it takes more than 1 ride to get them setup right. And you can't translate your MTB size to a drop bar frame.

I set my Fargo up for a compromise - higher than a road position, more like cross.
Full on height was great for techy single track but I used it for more gravel / trail / road all rounder.

Every bike is a compromise.

This.

If the drops feel 'low' on technical terrain (as in lower than a straight bar would), then it's because you have the bars set too low. Do a little searching around for various articles on how to set up drop bars for dirt. It's not the same as setting them up for road, nor even gravel. And like bmike-vt said, one ride on this type of bike - especially if you're not used to riding a drop bar mtn. bike, is likely not enough to come to a comprehensive conclusion. Particularly given the conditions you described for your one test ride. They take some getting used to. And even then it might not be your cup of tea, but you should devote more time, and play around with the setup, before forming a firm opinion.

[Flounder]

As others have said, the only position of much utility when in technical terrain is the drops. So, they need to be positioned pretty high. It makes these bikes look a little odd, but the bars need to be up there to be of any use when dropping off ledges, or down steep trail. Unlike a road bike where some people spend 75% of their time on the hoods, that's likely the amount of time you'll spend in the drops on singletrack with a properly set up Deadwood.

For really aggressive riding, I set up my Fargo with cyclocross brake levers on the tops of the bars. The width between your hands sucks there, but you can ride more upright, which helps on steep descents.