Road touring - all that baggage!

[MartinFarrent]

For my main summer trail tour, I rode from Annecy (near Geneva) to Marseille - pic attached. Occasionally resorting to paved roads, I was once again amazed at the amount of luggage road tourers tend to carry. Back home, I've been building a lightish bike for shopping, training and road trips... and have discovered that I actually need to stretch my imagination to fill four panniers, even if I rather generously add luxury items to the UL kit I use for MTB-bikepacking. It makes me wonder whether the heavy, ultra-strong and expensive bicycles many road travellers favour make financial sense. I think they would probably spend less overall by buying lighter gear. Additionally, they might end up with a simpler, faster and more recreational bike for other purposes.

After all, very few people genuinely require an expedition-grade cycle... because it's a small minority that actually go on real expeditions. In my book, neither a multi-day Alpine trail tour nor a road trip from the UK to Portugal qualify. The former is obviously more fun on a real mountain bike, while the latter might be pleasurable on a light and rigid hybrid equipped with racks (allowing for slightly more kit than I would take on a bikepacking adventure). Expedition bikes and their kin strike me as overkill for such purposes, leading to even more overkill when it comes to loading them up.


 

[sfuller]

Having done both types of touring, I would say that I tended to bring more bulky single purpose items and items of comfort while road touring. Tennis shoes, more off-bike clothing, big camp towel, etc. I tend to pack a lot lighter/smaller now just because I have the experience of really paring my equipment down and few years of investment in lighter, more compact gear. As far as bikes go, my Fargo is about as "expedition grade" as my bike will need to get for quite a while.

[MartinFarrent]

Yeah, I think it's the experience - and the investments - of bikepacking that can enhance road touring mentality. And applying the respective philosophy properly, there's plenty of bikepacking equipment you could safely drop on most road tours. In the mountains, I pack a 110g Mountain Equipment UL bivy bag (never needed, just to play safe) and yucky peronin emergency food (generally reluctantly consumed on the trip's last day). I'm also prepared for freak temperature drops and carry more tools/spares than I might need on a road trip to Alsace or Amsterdam. All in all, the savings can make up for (say) a more city-proof lock or even some extra clothing. And in measure, a little(!) extra weight can't hurt on the road trips I foresee. I don't think they will often take me to mountainous regions - because that kind of terrain really begs for trail fun on a real MTB.

[MartinFarrent]

P.S. @sfuller

Most expedition bikes that enjoy the approval of experienced world tourers don't look half as much fun as a Fargo... more like old-fashioned and overbuilt commuting bikes. Now I'm very willing to concede there are excellent reasons for their particular (heavy) preferences... and while I don't think many of us have those reasons, I see a lot of bikes built on that paradigm when summer-touring in Europe. Incidentally however, many (if not most) mimick the ideal rather than actually fulfilling it.

I suspect many people desire what they have been led to perceive as the 'ultimate' travelling vehicle - in a generic sense that doesn't actually exist. The vast majority of them would probably be better off on lighter bikes with lighter loads and faster (on asphalt) tyres. Others - like most on this board - might appreciate even lighter loads on a mountain bike capable of handling technical trails. And of course, there's a case to be made for all sorts of options in between, notably for sturdy MTBs with rigid forks and racks. But unless you are actually planning a trip from Paris to Mongolia, I see little reason for a bike like this http://www.oxfordbikeworks.co.uk/expedition/ - great as it no doubt would prove for its stated use cases.

[vikb]

If you buy a fully loaded touring expedition frame and don't load it up you have an overly stiff ride that's not comfortable and that's an energy suck for your legs.

OTOH - if you buy a flexy light duty MTB and load it to the gills with stuff it's hard to ride, potentially dangerous and may break.

In a perfect world you select the appropriate equipment for the trip at hand and the gear you will carry. The problem is [just like in other areas of human endeavour] people get caught up in their fantasies and buy things for emotional reasons not practical ones. Hence SUVs being used to cruise to the mall and carry 4 bags of groceries home...or expedition bicycles being used for easy local tours.

[MartinFarrent]

@vikb

Yes, fantasies ;-) If you follow my last link, you can easily see what happens. That Oxford bike costs the equivalent of 2800 euros and is a very deliberate and reasoned understatement. So, encouraged by many vendors, people find something that seems similar and even superficially superior for about half the price - and never discover they have all the weight, but relatively little of the strength, durability and globetrotting convenience the Oxford boasts. And why don't they discover that? Because their itineraries never put their vehicles to the test and never will. So they are content to fancy they have a bike for Peru or the Gobi desert... as they pedal around in Denmark.

In actual fact, they could save another 500 and buy a lighter, faster bike plus racks for 1000 euros or less. Then they might spend the savings on a ME Helium summer bag, a NeoAir, a 50g butane stove and a titanium mug. And they would be on the way to touring heaven... comparatively. Of course, those that actually fork out the 2800 for the 'real thing' would save a whole lot more - more than enough to buy a complete kit of top-quality UL trekking gear.

The funny thing is that the fairly affluent type of person to buy the Oxford unnecessarily is often the type of person who would never ditch a job and career to put the bike to its intended use.

[B@se]

http://www.bicycle-junkies.com/

[Krampus Snail]

Is it so hard to believe that road tourists have different preferences than you do, and are buying the bikes and carrying the equipment that satisfy those preferences? For example, some tourists cook food while on tour, so they bring much more cooking equipment than you do. You might prefer worse food and a lighter load, while they prefer better food and a heavier load. You might be satisfied to wear the same clothes for days without washing them, but others don't like the feel of clothes worn for five days at a time.

Instead of thinking that other tourists have the same goals as you (lightness and speed) but are bad at satisfying those goals, consider instead that they have different goals (comfort, for example) and are carrying the equipment that satisfies their goals.

[MartinFarrent]

Yes... but I had already factored that in when I spoke of lighter (as opposed to less) gear. Even adding the weight of four panniers plus several kilos of comfort to my UL bikepacking kit I still arrive at 15 kilos max for a summer or autumn road trip. It's only when I envision harsher conditions and remoter regions that I might require much more.

[Michael_S]

the same thing happens in backpackng.  Some go for a week with 25 lbs including all food and others carry 50 lbs+. 

If you are careful with packing, invest in lightweight  equipment and wear/bring clothes that are either washable or wearable for a few days days (wool) you can do with a lot less. It does cost a lot of money to go ultralight.  And a lot of people don't know what their options are to save weight/bulk.

You have to leave out some luxuries but you do get to enjoy the ride more. 

mike

[Krampus Snail]

If I left out some luxuries, I wouldn't enjoy the ride more. I'd enjoy it less. That's why I bring the luxuries (or what you may call luxuries) along in the first place. I'm the world's expert in what I like, and I would not be happy following the ultralight style of bikepacking. To each her own.

I just finished 2300 miles of the Divide. I carried more than 15 kilos of stuff, and I have a heavy bike, too. I don't regret it, and if I did it again, I would bring the same stuff and (definitely) ride the same bike.  I like my heavy sleeping bag, which I bought to replace a lighter-weight sleeping bag that caused me to wake up cold in the night. I like my two person tent-- I'm damned if I'll spend another night in a one-person coffin, or being eaten by bugs under a tarp. I like bringing a stove, because I like hot drinks in the morning and a hot meal at night. I like my Tilley hat; when I'm in camp or in town, it keeps off the sun, and it keeps off the bugs pretty well too.  I like a filter rather than Aquamira, because the water tastes better. I like bringing along a few spices to make the food taste better.

I have no quarrel with the ultralight folks, except when they have the temerity to tell me they know better than I do about what I like. I know what I like. I know the tradeoffs I'm making, and I make them willingly, on purpose.

[MartinFarrent]

And a lot of people don't know what their options are to save weight/bulk.

Agreed. Taking Krampus Snail's valid comments on luxuries into account, I repeat that I am talking about lighter rather than less (or smaller, cramped etc). Here in Europe, at least, the average backpacker or bike tourer remains unaware of concepts like tarptents - because your typical b&m or online store isn't liable to inform people about products it doesn't stock. And that is just one example of an option that is almost unknown to the general touring public. As a result, people who decide to lighten up automatically make comfort sacrifices - and those that don't enjoy the experience quickly revert to standard gear. I've met plenty of bike people and backpackers en route who weren't even aware of the NeoAir and marvelled when I showed them mine. By no means all of them were using inexpensive gear themselves.

[ogobogo]

Hi there!
I am quite new o this forum and this section is not the proper one to introduce myself. That's why I go directly to the questions.
Since I am a fan of bikepacking and, at the same time, as less luggage as possible on my back, I" would like to have the opinions of packers who cycle dirt roads with panniers. I would like to know the most durable and worth investing panniers for such occasions.

Now regarding my experience:
I got access to a pair of Kangaroo baggs that I used really hardcore during two of my trips each taking about 20 days.
My first trip was mostly asphalt with elements of dirt. What I noticed at the end of the trip was that the solid part of each pannier (the one that rests on the bike rack) started cracking.
In order to reinforce the panniers, I decided to remove the hooks by unbolting them and add washers. This being done I started my second trip which was 99% paths covered with stones.

The first day involved about 20 km dirt road with loads of stones. What happened then was that initially my first pannier detached from the rack - the jolts had unscrewed the panniers - and a little bit later the second pannier fell apart.

On a close look I noticed that the bolts had not been firmly screwed. I did some on-scene repair and kept on moving.

At the end of the trip I accounted for the damages. First of all the solid part of the panniers which is aluminium was torn. I started wondering whether it is worth investing in another set of panniers. Knowing that Ortlieb are, according to a guy I met on the road, the best of the best, I got access to those panniers. However, what I noticed is sort of dissatisfying to me. The solid part is a flexible plastic, much less stronger than the aluminium of the Cangaroo baggs. Secondly, the attachment points are made of plastic. Are Ortliebs reliable enough for such exploitation? If not, what are the most suitable panniers?

Thanks in advance,
Ognyan

PS: having in mind that almost nobody uses panniers during their trips, I assume that pannier investment is a waste of money.

THe attached photo is one of the damaged panniers

[Lentamentalisk]

Ortlieb bags are great, but I still wouldn't recommend doing that much more than hopping a curb with them if they are heavily loaded. I've done plenty of riding around with panniers, and they are amazing on flat ground, but start to get a bit annoying on bumpy ground. I think the main culprit for this is that they are just so large that people are tempted to fill them with too much weight. Even filled with water, all the bikepacking bags in the world can't come close to the weight of a set of overstuffed rear panniers.

[ogobogo]

Thanks for the answer

It seems that the only option is back-bikepacking. Or it might also be with self-made bags with diy attachment hooks.

What about the attachment mechanisms of the Ortlieb bags - how much can one count on them?

[Lentamentalisk]

What about the attachment mechanisms of the Ortlieb bags - how much can one count on them?

Well... They are plastic, and I've had the same reservations as you, but so far I have had no problems. I used the same bag every single day all year round for about 4 years until the fabric started to wear through (and thus lose its waterproofness) but the mounting hardware is still in perfect condition. While most of my riding was on paved roads, I also did a fair amount of mountain biking with it, and it saw the absolute worst of the salt and slush of several Vermont winters.

There are two things I should note though. Bumps cause the attachments to rattle around a bit. This is just noise, but it can be a little annoying. I'm sure some electrical tape in the right places would reduce this. Also the bottom "finger" that holds onto your rack can come a little loose. It is recommended that you tighten it every 50-100 miles. I'd say basically give it a little twist every time you put your bags on your bike and you'll be fine.

But to be sure, the Ortlieb bags are designed for a less technical style of riding than standard bikepacking bags are designed for. They are great for anything where you'd be fine riding a fully rigid bike. If you really start wishing you had suspension, your panniers will be complaining too.

[mathieu]

Are Ortliebs reliable enough for such exploitation?

I have used a pair of Ortliebs rear panniers in several years of touring on dirt routes in the US (Great Divide and others). Probably much to the surprise of MartinFarrent, they are often filled to the brim with gear and food. In addition I use a 30 liter rack pack for storing lighter gear, like a mattress and sub-zero sleeping bag. I often wonder how the ultralight backpacking brigade survives those multi-day excursions in remote backcountry, but they probably don't enjoy as much as I do a tin of sliced peaches on heavy sirup when they get to a high pass.

Needless to say that I second Krampus Snail's comments. You take the bike and bags that you like and fit best to your touring style. I can think of one strong reason for not taking panniers: if you have to do a lot of hike-a-bike (i.e. pushing the bike uphill). Your right-hand hip is always blocking the space where your left-hand pannier wants to go.

My Orliebs have survived a lot of rough use and abuse. One weak point are the plastic M4 screws at the ends of the horizontal plastic bar that attaches to the rear rack. I replaced them by metal M4 screws and nuts (picture).

Food picture: at the start of a 5000 ft climb in Central Idaho (see: www.crazyguyonabike.com/doc/page/?o=tS&page_id=434642&v=SQ)

[Krampus Snail]

My Ortliebs have made it across the U.S. on pavement, up the Sierra and the Cascades on pavement from the Mexican border to the Canadian border, and from Banff to Abiquiu on the Divide. And they're still in good shape. If you choose to bikepack with panniers, Ortliebs are a good choice.

[RunRig]

I've got a set of front and back Ortliebs, and a back set for my son. My son got the new set (20% off @REI), and I got my "old" set on clearance. The only difference between the "old" and "new" is that the new model doesn't require a hex wrench to adjust the hooks on the slidey bars. So far, have only been on two overnight trips with these bags, but am looking forward to more and longer trips. Didn't really need the front bags for overnight, but took them for testing on the first overnighter, and only put lightweight stuff in there. I do expect they'll be more durable than the nylon commuter panniers that we had previously used...though those did do pretty good on a three night trip to Catalina.

Mathieu...what's in the big plastic bag? Tortillas? Looks like they are expired  :-) I hadn't thought of bringing tuna, sounds good. On our last trip, we brought single serve packs of Spam, and had delicious fried egg, spam, cheese and spam sandwiches on Hawaiian rolls 

[ogobogo]

I will definitely give the Ortliebs a try. But I am more apt to think that they are not going to stand the tests of brutality.
Time will show. Thanks though for your opinions