Yuppie 911

[AZTtripper]

I did read the boyscout story it did sound like he self rescued it seemed more like some loved one called in the rescue. It's a tough call I have always had a understanding with my wife that 24 to 36 hours is not that late. But how do you convince mothers to sit and wait for their sons or husbands to self rescue while they sit at home worried.

Up thread I was called out and rightly so for my callous "Darwin" comment so how do we convince our SO's to give us a chance to have an adventure and get our selves out of what we've gotten ourselves into.

Webster's defines "Adventure" as 1 a daring, hazardous undertaking 2 (and this is a good one) an unusual, stirring, often romantic experience. I've looked this up before and the other dictionary also said something about an unknown outcome.

So clearly any adventure could end up running long, and the possibility of running behind spending an extra night out is always there. So how do you convince the SO to sit and wait it out. My wife has always been pretty understanding (she is a climber also and understands) but I have know guys who have to call in as soon as the climb/ride is over. On one occasion I miss judged how long a climb would take, we were a couple of hours late and the other guys wife was calling the Sheriff while we were at Micky D's having dinner (pre cell days). Fortunately they had a 24 hour rule before they were going to get involved.

[Pivvay]

I'm not sure the family call in was the issue for me on the boyscout. He was doing a good job when they fined him because of "off trail" travel. That's a problem for me since lot of people ride, hike or climb off trail and that's not necessarily bad. Heck I think I have had to leave the trail to get to every alpine climb I've ever done, current injurious one included.

Having a predetermined "late" time and plan with the wife or family is key. Marni and I went thru this once on my first White Rim. She didn't call us in overdue at dark but her friend whose boyfriend I was riding with did. Now the 24 hour thing is standard unless we have a separate SPOT signal mapped out.

[stevage]

Hmm, thinking about this a bit more, I'm very tempted to get a PLB beacon for one specific situation: snakebite. Australia is full of deadly snakes, and it's not uncommon to see one. If there's two of you, one goes to get help. Alone, you're pretty stuffed - any movement accelerates the spread of the venom. I'm not sure you'd survive a 24 hour wait period either...

[Pivvay]

Sure that's one. Major broken bones would be another or major bleeding. All those I would consider potentially deadly and therefore certainly grounds for a rescue. I'm sure there are others I'm not foreseeing.

I like having the SPOT or in a really remote area maybe the sat phone because you can't control everything. I don't treat it as a 100% failsafe (which I guess is the point too) but I'm happy to carry it for a worst case scenario to improve my odds. The fact that it does double duty with the "I'm okay" tracking or check in is even better. If a SPOT didn't exist, I'd probably carry a straight up EPIRB.

Maybe the best for the future is an 8oz SPOT with EPIRB reliability or system usage that also has a sat phone built in with some minimal call time capabilities. That gives you tracking, shit hits the fan 911 and the potential to communicate the issue to rescuers to be the most prepared. Futuristic for now perhaps but it seems quite possible in the long term. Heck it's hardly more than a satellite iPhone...

[stevage]

Hell, even SMS-like capabilities would be a huge step forward. "Urgently need eastern brown snake anti-venin, bitten at 17:55, staying put." is so much more informative than a general distress call, and removes any possible doubt about it being a false alarm, or the urgency of the situation.

[AZTtripper]

"Off Trail" travel!

I had forgot about that part I agree lot of adventures take place "off trail" unless there is an official ban on bushwacking how can that be such a big deal.

Back in the Canyon I did a raft trip last fall and during our pre trip ranger talk he did recommend using the sat phone to call in right away even if we didn't end up needing help. Better to call first let them know you might need help rather then wait until the last minute. At least let them know you might need help get things going in standby mode speeds up any real rescue when the time comes. Seems like in some cases the sat phone 2 way might be better then a spot.

Caller "is it safe to drink salty water" operator "well it is better then not drinking at all". Caller "OK thanks" "have a nice night"

Sat phones are pricey tho.

[stevage]

>Sat phones are pricey tho.

Horrifically so. At a quick glance, $1500+ (well, in australia anyway), compared to $2-300 for a PLB. Plus it seems you need a "plan"...which is annoying for something you hope to never actually use.

Then again, if you had a sat phone, you'd probably end up using it for more mundane purposes, like coordinating car shuffles or something.

[Pivvay]

Yea as of now sat phones are too much money for me to buy. They're realistic to rent for a 1 month trip if it's really important to have one.

However ATT is coming out with plans in the future so we'll see what happens. Even an SMS capable sat phone that was affordable enough to own with a reasonable fee could really change things. I want the ability to check in and let the family know I'm alright and the ability to call in for a rescue should things go horribly wrong. For now the SPOT does the job and I'm happy.

[stevage]

Yeah. interesting point that PLBs don't have a "I'm ok, tell my partner to stop worrying" button that you could push every 6 hours or so.

[Pivvay]

Yeah. interesting point that PLBs don't have a "I'm ok, tell my partner to stop worrying" button that you could push every 6 hours or so.

Yup. This is SPOT's greatest selling point...to all the wives and parents But for under half a pound I will oblige.

[bmike-vt]

Yup. This is SPOT's greatest selling point...to all the wives and parents But for under half a pound I will oblige.

I'm probably getting one for XMas from the sweetie... same reasons.

[SandLizrd]

For us reasonable people, it's not hard - program the "help" button one way and let "911" do its thing.  I made it clear to my brother (primary contact of messages) that help meant broken arm/leg, please call & ask the ranger to drop by soon.  "911" meant loss of blood.

But as stated, the yuppies aren't reasonable this way

[stevage]

Yeah, looks like the SPOT has the exact two features I wanted: an "I'm ok" button, and a "I need help, but not a helicopter" button.

Two issues:
1) It's $99 USD in the US, or $230 AUD in australia. I hate that. (Yes, I'm looking at you, Burton.) One website charged $99 for international shipping. Ridiculous.
2) You seem to have to get a $130 USD/year service contract. Pity you can't just enable the contract for shorter periods. Sure, some of us might spend significant portions of the year in the wilderness, but for most of us, it's only a week or two per year.

[AZTtripper]

Hmm, thinking about this a bit more, I'm very tempted to get a PLB beacon for one specific situation: snakebite. Australia is full of deadly snakes, and it's not uncommon to see one. If there's two of you, one goes to get help. Alone, you're pretty stuffed - any movement accelerates the spread of the venom. I'm not sure you'd survive a 24 hour wait period either...

Sounds more like you need a sat phone seems like 2 way communication would be key in the snake bite scenario.

Yeah. interesting point that PLBs don't have a "I'm ok, tell my partner to stop worrying" button that you could push every 6 hours or so.

Whats better then live in person.

Yeah, looks like the SPOT has the exact two features I wanted: an "I'm ok" button, and a "I need help, but not a helicopter" button.

Two issues:
1) It's $99 USD in the US, or $230 AUD in australia. I hate that. (Yes, I'm looking at you, Burton.) One website charged $99 for international shipping. Ridiculous.
2) You seem to have to get a $130 USD/year service contract. Pity you can't just enable the contract for shorter periods. Sure, some of us might spend significant portions of the year in the wilderness, but for most of us, it's only a week or two per year.

I am surprised no one is importing Spots I checked their website it says to contact them for distribution opportunities.

With snakes like that it still sounds like sat phone country to me.

>Sat phones are pricey tho.

Horrifically so. At a quick glance, $1500+ (well, in australia anyway), compared to $2-300 for a PLB. Plus it seems you need a "plan"...which is annoying for something you hope to never actually use.

Then again, if you had a sat phone, you'd probably end up using it for more mundane purposes, like coordinating car shuffles or something.

I'd try to find some one to share the service cost with, put together a small group a private time share kinda thing.

[stevage]

Well, obviously $$$atellite phones are better. (Still not sure I get why snakebite requires two way communication.)

>I'd try to find some one to share the service cost with, put together a small group a private time share kinda thing.

I actually wonder if the local bushwalking club has them...it would make sense wouldn't it?

[AZTtripper]

Well, obviously $$$atellite phones are better. (Still not sure I get why snakebite requires two way communication.)

So you could get by on one way, say if a spot gave you the ability to relay a text message but it can't so for now two way is the only option.

Cell users have reported good luck getting messages out even if they can't talk. I doubt that helps where you are. I should think that Sat texting isn't too far off.

I bet you will find a sat phone some where regionally at a reasonable rate. Maybe one of the Alpine clubs would have one to loan out short term. 

[stevage]

Yeah, but I really don't need a sat phone that badly. I barely even need a PLB. I just know that on a previous trip, the lack of it weighed on my mind a bit, and caused me to not attempt some stuff I would liked to have done...but maybe that's not a bad thing either.

Incidentally, I heard a rumour the other day that brown snake bites can be survived simply by bandaging it up and lying still for 3 days. Must research. (The question occurs...which would be a better strategy, that, or riding as fast as you could to a hospital.)

And since I'm completely hijacking the thread...is there any prospect of attaching a better aerial to a normal mobile phone? I guess they don't have antenna jacks these days, but are there any that do? That would seem a much cheaper way of extending your range than a sat phone.

As for "where I am"...well, I'm mostly talking about regional victoria, australia. Mobile reception is generally good, except you find that it only takes a valley or an inconveniently located mountain to completely kill it. And I'm not likely to be more than say 20-30km from civilisation. Not heading hundreds of kilometres off into the bush, for example.

[Jilleo]

Another interesting angle to the SPOT debate - the idea of making such devices compulsory. Although this is delving farther into the mountaineering realm (which is obviously different than bikepacking), it does go to show how expectations are changing in regard to this sort of thing. As more and more people embark on certain "adventures," naturally the adventurous part of the endeavor - i.e. risk - is slowly going to be carved out of it. Lawmakers and others are going to demand laws to limit personal choice in favor of an (often false) perception of safety. Thus, you get quotes line this: “When are you going to stop the carnage on Mount Hood?” said Jim Bender, a commissioner in Clackamas County on the south side of the mountain.

After climber deaths, Oregon faces beacon question

By TIM FOUGHT
Associated Press Writer

PORTLAND, Ore. (AP) — When a rescue team came on Luke Gullberg’s body at the top of a Mount Hood glacier and tried to figure out what had become of his climbing partners, they looked up at a forbidding rise of ice and snow.
They saw no sign of Katie Nolan and Anthony Vietti on the 1,500-foot Reid headwall, no gear in bright color standing out from the monochrome, no trail. And they heard no radio signal.
Had Nolan and Vietti rented a $5 locator beacon and had they been able to activate it after whatever misfortune ended their climb on Dec. 12, the searchers below might have been able to pinpoint their location. The two are presumed buried beneath several feet of snow and ice.
It’s the second time in three years that a search and rescue operation on the 11,239-foot mountain has failed to turn up climbers who went up the mountain without signaling devices and got into deadly trouble.
So, politicians, rescue crews, mountaineers and others are debating once again whether to require such climbers to carry locator beacons.
The recent rescue mission has raised the question, “When are you going to stop the carnage on Mount Hood?” said Jim Bender, a commissioner in Clackamas County on the south side of the mountain.
“People are dying for no reason,” said Bender, a longtime climber who said he had been up Mount Hood several times. “We need to find a way to protect them and we need to find a way to protect the people’s resources.”
A bill to require Mount Hood climbers to carry beacons on winter expeditions failed in the Oregon Legislature in 2007. Bender hopes the Legislature will revisit the question, or the state’s congressional delegation will take an interest.
He said the county commission will take another stab at a requirement that climbers carry locator beacons. Commissioners have previously run into a restriction on the kind of agreements they could make with the U.S. Forest Service, which manages the mountain.
It’s a mystery to many who don’t venture above timberline why the stiffest opposition to requiring beacons comes from the elite mountaineers who volunteer their time and put themselves at risk to get people off the mountain.
Beacons can be useful, but climbers should have the freedom to weigh the safety benefits of any piece of equipment against its weight or how it might impede their agility on a mountain that can rain down ice and rock at any moment, said Steve Rollins of Portland Mountain Rescue, a leader of Mount Hood search and rescue operations.
Mountaineers also warn that requiring the devices can lead some climbers to take undue risk, figuring on a rescue if they get into trouble, and that beacons aren’t always going to lead to rescues.
Even as they found Gullberg’s body, Rollins said, the snowpack beneath the feet of the members of the mountain rescue team was “shooting cracks” and making a “whumping” sound.
It was, he said, Mother Nature screaming about avalanche danger. That only rose during the search.
“I do not believe that we could have gotten there even if we had a beacon,” said Rollins.
One state official argues against such a requirement on grounds of personal liberty.
“The land is public, and I’m not a real big fan of mandating what people have to take with them when they want to go for a walk,” said Georges Kleinbaum, search and rescue coordinator for the Oregon Office of Emergency Management.
Besides, he said, enforcement would be impossible. “It’s a big mountain,” he said. “Are you going to put a ring around it, or force everyone through an entry point?”

[stevage]

>a $5 locator beacon

Wish it was like that here. There are some places you can hire them, but minimum $50 per rental, afaik.

Meanwhile, since we're posting stories about PLB's, this one was quite interesting a while ago:
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2009/09/02/2674705.htm

In short, our state water minister went missing on a solo mountain hike (not like that US politician who was supposedly on the Appalachian trail - this guy was the real deal). After they found him (using secret aircraft with secret technology the federal police denies it has) there was the predictable debate:

Victoria Police are defending the scale of the search for Water Minister Tim Holding, who spent two freezing nights lost in the state's alpine region, with the operation raising questions about the risks some hikers take.

Police Deputy Commissioner Kieran Walshe says Mr Holding will not have to pay for the rescue and did not get special treatment because he is a politician.

The 37-year-old was well prepared, but he was hiking alone and was not carrying an EPIRB - an Emergency Position Indicating Radio Beacon.

Opposition MP Bernie Finn has labelled Mr Holding foolish for not carrying an emergency beacon on his solo hike up Mount Feathertop.

"The ordinary Joe from the suburbs who goes walking by themselves in winter in such an area is a dill. For a minister of the Crown to do it is just super-dill - that is just ridiculous for anybody to even think about that," he said.

But outdoor survival expert Bill Proctor from Safety Access and Rescue is adamantly opposed to rules banning lone hikes or forcing walkers to carry EPIRBs.

"I'd be quite vehemently against something like that. Certainly from a personal perspective, for years now I've undertaken many trips and different things solo and I think it's one of the more rewarding things that one can do out in the wilderness," he said.
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[k7]

Yup. This is SPOT's greatest selling point...to all the wives and parents But for under half a pound I will oblige.

Exactly.   I used mine on a 100-mile kayak trip (Montgomery AL to Old Cahaba - plenty of snakes and gators by the way) in 2008 and on a riverboat/kayak trip on the Amazon (Rio Negro actually) this past summer.  It's worth every single penny for my wife to know I'm safe.  That 911 button isn't getting pushed unless something 911-worthy happens.   That means a near-death experience.