Thanks for the reply.  I hear you on the litter.  I'd be very interested in hearing about the ride.  I had done a full gps route from the terminus in the Upstate to the coast with some ride arounds and alternates but nothing like the 70 mile one you wrote about on the blog.  Some of it was without speaking with the folks at the Conservation office on hiking some of the sections while carrying the bike as it was only ~30 miles of hiking over a 500 mile route (they called me back but I had moved from the area and lost interest). 

I was also surprised to see your gps data on Strava for some sections I thought were impossible/difficult (for instance the gated sandy road east of Fort Jackson had me puzzled when I did some recon awhile ago but looks like you didn't have any problems). 

I found the Enoree sections downright impassable when I did some riding there but that was in Spring/Summer with a ton of overgrowth and blowdowns.  The horse section was awesome but the trail on each end of it was very difficult to find and follow and with bridges out etc.

Lots of threads in here that will sometimes link to blogs.  Slap TNGA into the search bar in the top right corner and dig in!

How did this go?

I've asked this question on here before and in practice the chain length DOES change because of the angle difference between the chainring and cog. If your frame has track ends and you are using a bolt on or chain tensioner, you can make those small adjustments when changing gears.

When I had a dingle setup using sliding dropouts I could make one ratio perfect, but the other would be off.

Curious what your ratios were?  Mine have always been fairly close and while the chain length changes slightly, it was SO small for me that it didn't matter in practice.  It wasn't enough that I felt like changing the sliders was worth the effort.  I guess I could see that being more significant with a very wide spread but not sure by how much.

I've used this chain calculator with success in the past (http://www.machinehead-software.co.uk/bike/chain_length/chainlengthcalc.html), and plugging in the 22/25 and 30/17 gives a difference in chain lengths of <1.5mm (or 0.12% longer).  That sounds about right in my experience.

Thanks for the reply. I was hoping someone could back up my assumptions and internet reading.

I'm curious if something as extreme as say 22F/25R and 30F/17R would work.  I haven't been able to find any good info on people using large gear spreads.

I need a really crawly gear and one that is tolerable enough to pedal on some dirt roads and easy single track. Not your typical bikepack terrain. Lot's of hiking involved, some river fords, pushing and pushing and pushing with some pedaling thrown in on occasion and wonderful descents. It borders on adventuring and single track touring. Great fun!

I don't think you'll find anything written on that wide of a gear choice just because most people opt for a closer one e.g. riding 36x18 to the trail at ~15mph, then 32x22 on the trails at ~9mph.

I don't know what Dean means re trouble with the QR and how that relates to a chain tensioner.  I'm 230# and have never had a QR slip (even held when I stripped an I9 drivering in the hubshell) but YMMV I suppose.  Just have to make sure it's tightened down well.

As for a chain tensioner, are you running sliders or EBB or have some other way to tension the chain?  If not, gear selection will be pretty important but I'm sure you can find something that works well enough.

In short, the answer is yes, yes, and yes.  Chain length won't matter if you keep to same tooth count. Chain line won't matter if everything is spaced properly. Nowhere near what you see on 3x10 setup.  If you go huge tooth differences you may need to space everything further apart so as to not rub on the larger cog/ring.

I would say those two gearings are a bit spinny? I'd opt for more of a 32x24/36x20 but depends on terrain you're travelling.

Printing at home from websites on waterproof paper. I had called their office awhile back to ask about biking the hiking sections and got an answer I can't remember now. Some were hiking only just because they couldn't imagine biking it. Could easily carry your bike up stairs etc. Very nice woman in their main office was super helpful. I had at one point mapped out the whole thing in top of fusion for an attempt that never happened. Had some alternates in the "mountain" sections

Fat Yooper will be in July.  Same route but on Fatbikes!

-Chad

Awesome pics!

Keep us posted on plans for the fatbike group ride.  I may be living in MQT by then and looking for some adventure.

I'd also say you may want to research some better routes through the Triple A area as I believe they are REALLY f'ing up that road with all the new mine action.  May be a bit more dangerous by this summer, and I'd say a lot less scenic with lots of new paving and vegetation clearing on both sides of the road.  Some relatives of mine have been telling me stories of touring that area by dirt bikes in the 1970s in their early 20's which sounds amazing, but alas will never happen again.

vivalavelo - I think it really depends on what you think "fair pay" is.  I think what you describe isn't too hard to do if 20k is fair, but odds are low if fair pay is 500k.  I was in a similar position to you (looking for career change) coming out of the food industry.  Lots of travel away from home but always in driving distance so I'd take the bike and try to ride a couple times a week.  Every once in awhile I'd be able to swing a 3 day weekend and hit some trials I'd never get to otherwise.  Made good money and worked my ass off for 13 years (from 19-32 so I gave them my "best years").  Was rewarded for it, but essentially put everything else on hold in the meantime. 

Got out of that almost 9 months ago and have spent that time taking my time finding the "next thing" and working on "personal development".  Lucky to have a very supportive/understanding wife (no kids or plans for them) and have made a game out of being frugal until income restarts.  I've been riding 6-7 days a week, trying to lose weight (still stuck at home, but now due to a large dog with new amputation and cancer running it's course), and spending my time fielding every idea I come across.  My goal is to find a couple small investments that I can put my savings into as a minority partner that will generate reasonable passive income.  I've found one so far, put in 25k and budgeting to draw 25k/yr from that one ongoing with a predetermined buyout valuation in the operating agreement for when the majority owner wants to take over the whole shebang.  At that point those funds roll into the next idea(s) and/or a retirement fund.  Ideally, rinse and repeat and never work for someone else again and never be tied to a physical location again.  That will allow me to live where I want, travel as I want, when I want, help family out, etc.  We'll see if it actually works.  Idea #2 in the works, always looking for n+1...

Be creative, lots of ways to make money in the world, and lots of ways to leverage cash for ownership if you can find folks you trust and an idea that can cashflow (and can afford to play with savings).  Geography also has some say in it, not sure what opportunities there are in Missoula, but don't let living there preclude you from gaining income from somewhere else.  I'm an open book, not into the taboo of not talking about money.  Feel free to reach out offline if you'd like and best of luck in your search.

On a side not, haven't been to Missoula but tons of time between Bozeman and Ennis in my teens.  Could still see retiring to Bozeman someday, have lots of family there.

Sew up a piece of elastic around the edge of a circle of blackout fabric from your local fabric store?  Carry it in your back pocket or clip it to something handy.  Slip it over the front of the light as needed.  Be careful not to set anything on fire covering a hot light...

Yup... they're currently quoting more than 13 months for frames - didn't help that they (sortof) go through a local distributor here who wasn't perhaps as diligent at following things up as he could be.

Current estimate is somewhere between Nov and Jan...

Good luck, I'm sure you'll be happy with the bike but the process can be frustrating.  My 5-6 months 2 years ago turned into 9-10 and that was with almost daily calls near the end.  And then it came with a few wrong parts and no pedals.  They always make it right but surprising issues for the $$ you pay.  Of course it could have gotten better in the last 2 years also.

bike should arrive sometime between now and Jan - custom Blacksheep)

Don't count on that. When did you order or when did they say it would be ready?
STAY ON THEM to be done before NAHBS or you're looking at April.

That's my fear - "Come and do what I did, but be sure to walk these sections" would be fine for everyone but the one guy that ruins it for everybody else.  The signs don't say no bikes, they just say "No Trespassing - Violators will be prosecuted" at one end on the gravel road with a gate with 3 locks and the other end actually says what you see below so maybe not an issue at all for that end:

Thanks for the input.  I should have clarified this is a course that would be posted - Palmetto Trail in SC, nothing exists for bikers yet for the whole route, don't want to alienate us from other groups by breaking the rules.

The gated community I'm not as concerned with I guess, although this would be a posted route so not sure I want to encourage it.  The reroute is ok (5.5 mile pavement climb from 1k to 1.7k), but the original I had in mind would have been so much cooler (5.5 mile climb from 1k to 3k, then 1.2 mile very rough gravel descent to 2.2k, then 2.8 mile pavement descent to 1.7k).

The second one is a bit puzzling.  The hiking trail I am trying to replace with pavement/roads actually runs along and/or ON this same road.  If you can walk it legally as part of a trail I can't understand not being able to ride it even if access points say no.  I really to find the person in charge of the park/trail and ask but just about zero leads on that.

Maps below show the original no-beta route (second one includes hiking) in blue, the "hopeful" route in green, and where I drove it in red.  I may just need to carry or push the bike through the hike to not have so much pavement.  Again, need to make sure that's allowed somehow.

[they are more about individuals coming to grips with the bikepacking paradox: an ethos of self-support yet carried out in a group setting]

There's a great line by Robert Millar in a Cyclingnews article today: 

Something to keep in mind if this (and similar threads) nauseate you.  There is nothing wrong with avoiding these threads.  For the most part, they are more about individuals coming to grips with the bikepacking paradox:  an ethos of self-support yet carried out in a group setting .  Start together, yet limit interactions with others. 

I really struggled through the most difficult rules thread a couple years back...ugh.  But, at the end of the day it did help me to define the rules for the Dixie events.

http://2-epic.com/events/rules.html

I opted for the "less is more", leaving it open for riders to experience an event however they choose with very little rule encroachment.  That's how it should be for an unofficial format of self-reliant individuals, no? KISS.

Thanks for your input and link Dave. 

Randonneuring events do pay LAB insurance. FWIW.
I think most randonneurs would disagree with you on the 'race' aspect. But maybe that is different with the folks you ride with. You can't arrive at a control too early ( or you wait) and you can't arrive late (or you won't be an official finisher). Sort of like the arbitrary cut off for the TD. There is a tradition to the time / speed requirements.

I don't think they are apples to apples at all, just throwing out my experience.

If you want it to be a race, then there are likely to be rules. Which seems this is about.

I'm confused by your last line. Isn't that what TD and other events are? No prizes, no insurance. Group ride semi official competitive (but not race) race?

I meant to be more all-inclusive than just rando events (and hoped to be more articulate, I fear I failed there).  My point was don't call it a race if you are posting times, whether it's sorted that way or not.  I understand the rando rules with controls but you can also agree that there is a theoretical "minimum" time that serves as a goal?  We all know the unofficial stance is it's a race regardless of what the official literature says or we wouldn't be posting times as there'd be no point in doing so.  Not posting times turns it into a fun long social/training/whatever ride and we'd be happy about finishing it.  Same for TD - if you want to race it, great, join the GD. Otherwise you are touring.  I guess you could say ITTs are a middle ground as you aren't racing against others concurrently but racing the clock instead in hopes of posting a Fastest Known Time for a route. 

My last line was just a jab at what you actually name it (Tour Divide vs Tour Divide Race for instance).  For example, we have the North Cackalacky Singlespeed Caddywompus Rally here in Raleigh.  Not really a race, more of a social ride, but there is a trophy so you could call it a race with criteria aside from time (best pinata bashing for instance).  Another example would be doing a stage race we have been wanting to organize but not officially organizing it as we'd never get it approved.  You could simply post on a forum like this and call it whatever you want but we all know its unofficially a race and that we'd be timed etc etc.

[proper]

What is the proper way to deal with "private" property either when making routes pre-ride or running into unforseen issues while riding.  I specifically do not mean property that I would describe as residentially private i.e. a house on a tract of land with no commercial slant to it.  I say "private" to encompass just about anything else - like loosely gated communities, roads that say closed to motor vehicles but not bikes or walking, church property, school property, etc.

Specifically I ask this because I had recently written a GPS track using Topofusion and Google/Bing/etc but inevitably ran into a few problems when I drove two sections today that I wrote to get around hiking only section of a long trail. 

The first one was a pavement section that passes over a mountain and turns to rough 4x4 track on the other side.  Google didn't show a street view for the area and satellite wasn't clear enough to see the details.  When I drove it today I was stopped by a gated golf course community that wasn't manned by people or cameras.  I could have easily walked around the gate.  If I were riding alone I could ride around and claim I lived there, coming home from a long ride.  Bad idea?  With a couple riders that would be more difficult.

The second was a pavement section that turns to gravel to again pass over a mountain.   On one side there is a gate that says "no parking" and "no trespassing".  Again, could easily walk around and the road leads to a tv/radio antenna at the top of the mountain a few miles further up.  I would be more uncomfortable from an ethical standpoint crossing this gate but I guarantee it would be far less noticed than the previous example as nobody travels that road.  On the other side of the mountain it is pavement but there is a similar gate a few miles from the top.  All it says is "no motor vehicles" and has a hiking trailhead right outside the gate.  This one seems very ambiguous.

So, what's the rule or best practice?  Find the owner somehow and ask permission for X date?  Don't cross no matter what so as to not ruin it for the rest of the population?  First rule of fight club?

I believe someone here likened bikepack racing to randonneuring.  I like that analogy, in that randonneuring (as far as I understand it) primarily recognizes completion (and this community probably should also recognize attempts, given the grand scale of these races), not the order.  However, the order is published.

My stance is if you call it a race, then race it and show integrity in how you go about racing.  That's for XC to TD.  If you wouldn't allow it in an XC race don't allow it in ultras (being a jerk, taking shortcuts, blah blah blah).  And no that doesn't work the other way If you can't/won't/don't race with integrity then don't race or be ready to be relegated for rules violations by honest folks.  If you don't call it a race then enjoy the experience of touring the route and forget about the time it takes you.  I don't see a middle ground.

Rando events and other grassroots endeavors don't call themselves races in order to avoid costs of insurance, getting permits, and the liability of contestants hurting themselves and breaking rules/laws etc.  If they were serious about it not being a race they wouldn't post times.  I laugh every time I see the rules for events like that that claim its not a race just because they don't sort their list by time.  If time is involved, its a race. Period.  If it's an accomplishment based activity then post lists of finishers and give some high fives.  Want to race your buddies on a trail but don't want to go through all the hassle?  Call it a self supported competitive group ride, an ITT, or a hullabaloo.

Yup.  I like to get away and be with my thoughts and feelings on my own.  But, there is a certain breed of "racer" who is completely disinterested in self-enlightenment.  You have probably seen the type out there.

Not to get sidetracked but I don't understand this hate for racers vs those who are on another plane of enlightenment.  Who says what is right or wrong or what any person should get out of an experience?  I'm in the middle somewhere between "racing" and "being enlightened", and I don't see anything wrong with either end.  I do see something wrong with preaching/assuming you are a better person etc etc etc because you are at either end of that spectrum.

As for phones in ultra races, I tend to agree with febikes in that it's style points akin to Matt Lee's anti-hoteling.  We don't harp on guys for checking in on computers during the race but do for phone use?  I don't get it.  Additionally I agree with a poster above in that it can be good or bad.  Me talking to my wife would be 50% wanting to continue and 50% wanting to go home regardless of the topic.  It's a tool that can be used to better or worsen your condition.

As for music, I couldn't go without it for weeks on end because it's an integral part of my life and has been for as long as I can remember.  For some people it isn't and that's cool too.  Just like smells, music brings back memories that I cherish (and hate), and I don't think that's a bad thing.  I'd prefer that whatever I listened to on a ride like the TD would bring associations to that experience later also that I may not get without it (seems to be the way my brain works).  I hear certain songs and remember driving to Scuba lessons when I was 14 or reading a favorite book or riding a certain trail.  I like that.   I'm not saying I need it 24/7 but I get in a mood from time to time on the bike.  Oddly I don't listen to music on any "regular" training rides.

Very cool, super clean look, and clever thinking with the shock cord to accommodate growth and reduce joint stress.  Depending on the bike (and what you're comfortable with) you could add water bottle bosses on the underside of the top tube and use the same system at ST and DT.