Wow, that's a big stretch to pull off with out a food resupply. A local from Vail who is hoping to do his first 300 this year stops by the Rincon store often he'll check it out most likely this weekend.

Huh, hypothetically of course as in some superhuman mutant who comes to shatter the current record on the 300/750. Hypothetically of course does this superhuman even need water.

A couple of us are thinking about doing a Reddington to Molino overnighter early next month it's out of the way but I was thinking of picking up the end of Broadway section just to skip the narrow Tanque Verde road so we can check the BLM office at that time. I'll put out a local request to look for a spigot at the Rincon Store.

Not sure about the store but I doubt it or if they do it's likely the kind with a removable key/knob. I can't find any info on line (not surprising) I could possibly get someone who lives near there to go and check it out. But I have to wonder who besides Kurt could skip the other resupply points in Tucson.

As far as the off topic I mean on topic parks and carrying subject. I haven't been to Canyonlands sucks that one group ruined it for the rest. The Big Ditch has also had it's share of transgressors. After the Spine Crew went and got themselves busted Lee sent an email to a friend who works up there. Didn't sound like they were going to hold the actions of one group against the rest. Hopefully that will continue. Hopefully those of us who make the trip for what ever reason at what ever pace will continue to do things the right way. Having done the road ride 215 miles around the canyon I don't want to have to go that way again. Though I think they did widen the road since 04 but it's still a lot of pavement and a lot of traffic. I would actually say that if you take 3 days (7 miles a day) to hike the canyon it's easier then the road ride around. Not to mention safer.

Off topic again I wonder how long it would take Kurt to do the road ride version of the AZT. I never thought anyone could ride the real trail (even with the snow detours) as fast as he did. One day at a trail event at Sahuarita road we were all eating lunch after. Someone heard Scott's name and said you are the guy who did the whole thing in 7 days. "He cheated" I said and Scott agreed taking roads and skipping the ST is just not the same challenge. Last year I caught up with Ian "our man in the north" on the Elephant Head downhill he said something to the effect of "how did Scott get to Tucson so fast in 05" "he cheated" I said "he skipped around the Canelo's and rode the highway on the other side of the mountain". It's not really cheating I guess it's just not the same. The distance might be similar but the lack of Hike a Bike alone would make a big difference IMO. Back before this site when we were still discussing this on MTBR. Dave C made a comment that he thought there would be riders who would rather do the road ride race then the ST "true to the AZT" race. My thinking was as long as they acknowledge the difference it wouldn't bother me. I also thought that if there were such a race it should perhaps start in the North like the book "How to Skip the AZT" was written. Starting in the Fall would make it more likely to get to ride the Kiabab stuff. Getting the Canyon out of the way when your fresh, might ruin you for the rest or be a good thing to have over and done with. Skipping over all of the HAB stuff in the south should I think make things go pretty fast in the end.

I doubt there's anything official all I know is Scott called and talked with the superintendent personally back in 05. He said as long as no wheels touch the ground we are ok. It's not Wilderness down there so that restriction doesn't apply thankfully. Seems like they are starting to see more of us 3 that I know of last year. The only one I heard of getting hassled was the guy late in the season and that sounded minor. In some ways it would be great to get to the N Rim later when it's open, for food if nothing else. But the timing would be tough as it's hard to get camping then unless you hiked through in a day of course.

Prices seem to have gone up I can't remember exactly how much everything was but as I recall lunch to go was $10 now they are $12.39 why not just $12.50 but what ever. I got two last time and wished I had 3 or 4 but in hind site they aren't worth it. Though as Scott said it's food you don't have to carry down.

It's a tough call I can't see anyone giving you grief at the BCO as long as you don't get pissy if they say sorry it's all full. Can't see Cottonwood being full but you never know. Can't see any one from this group getting pissy (and certainly no one currently on board) but you never know. Obviously anyone who makes it that far is going to be tired and anxious to finish so I could see someone in the future feeling stressed and getting frustrated. That was kind of what I got from the late season report.

Once you have a permit or reservation I can't see any NPS staff "just having a bad day" giving you grief but well they are people too so anything is possible. As for the one mule skinner who gave me grief maybe they too are getting used to seeing wheels on peoples backs. One thing I had considered was going into their office and getting a schedule. Of the two groups that passed me the first was at a wide open spot. The second came around a corner and there wasn't much room. I basically had to throw my gear up on a ledge and jump up there myself to make room. I did all of that way before they got to me but I still got the stink talk. Though the young girl at the back of the train gave me a nice smile (yeah I am old and married so that made my day). So if you knew how many mule trains to expect and what the timing was it might be possible to figure out where to take a break and just wait them out.

I can't find any thing about the PR desk either but I remember it was early and I did my best to be there when they opened but was a few minutes late. I had gotten there the day before and had a room with bath next door (price there seems up as well oh well). Lots of logistics to work out up there and the timing is going to be key. Possibly getting there in the afternoon and getting a handle on things. Getting to the BCO in the afternoon when there aren't a bunch of people standing in line might help. But then you either have to pay to stay inside or ride back out of the park. There is some camping (car camper sites) west of the highway along the dirt road near the Tusayan TH.  

Hope this helps more then confuses things.
Tim

My experience at the canyon was a very positive one. The person at the Backcountry office had no problem with the bike concept. The Backcountry ranger seemed to be trying to memorize my name (she had met Scott and Lee the year before) like she wanted to be able to list the crazies by name. No one with the NPS seemed to care but the one mule skinner acted like I had no right to be there with "those wheels". As far as I know what we are doing is well within the rules "as long as no wheels touch the ground". Obviously if you set your pack down they might touch but I can't see them being nit picky as long as it's obvious you have no intention of riding.

The was a trip report several weeks after the race last year. The guy got to the S Rim after May 15 once the N Rim opens it's hard to get a spot at either CG. I don't know what he did to draw attention to himself but his comment was something like "and then on the N Rim the ranger said something about we told you no camping". Apparently the guy got a late start and then hiked all night thus giving the impression he may have camped somewhere along the way.

Hopefully as more people attempt the full trip weather in race or tour mode they will play it cool with the NPS. Getting to the S Rim early and hiking straight through seems to cause no harm. Likewise going through proper channels and getting a permits all good. Showing up at  busy BC office and then expecting good things to happen just because not cool IMO. The good thing for those on the race pace with our typical start times we should all be there before the N Rim opens if we want to camp at Cottonwood.

There is also the lodging at Phantom Ranch another way to break up the hike is to stay there and then you deal with them instead. One plus there is that they start the line for open spaces at some crazy early time like 5 or 6 am. NPS BCO is 8 or 9. Sounds like something I should look up and add to the info list. For the 06 ride I was at the Phantom desk first thing got my spot there and then had time to get b-fast before heading to the BCO. There were a lot of people there but that time of year they all want Bright Angle CG. The ranger will come out and tell them all there are no spots for tonight the best they can hope for is the next night. When I got to the window and said Cottonwood the ranger said I could have most any night. So it was easy to get the following night for my 3 day plan. Several options good luck working out what is best for "you're just another bikepacker looking for adventure".    

Mike it just depends on the course you want to ride. There are those who like the Fargo type bikes but they seem best for gravel grinders. A few die hard types ride them on ST but most prefer to have at least front suspension and MTB geometry.

Maybe if we stir hard enough the Monstercross riders will come out and give us some good reasons to ride a less comfortable bike. If you don't stir the pot the soup will burn. 

Good comments Kurt pretty sure it General Springs and no it's not much but I have found snow melt there even in low snow years. Before that along the Highline I think Geronimo creek is a pretty good source even in dry years. I think the Deep canyon is East Clear Creek after you climb out of that you are near Rock Crossing CG.

Mark that huge tank was it up hill about .5 miles south of the 2 track. That comes just before the start of the Babbit passage. Sounds like Cedar Tank if so that could be a good one.

Hopefully the trail north of the canyon will be open except for the fire closure section. Looks easy to get on the hyway to bypass the closure. The Kaibab Monstercross http://www.bikepacking.net/routes/kaibab-monstercross/ does a huge detour down hill on dirt roads to bypass this on dirt seems like for the 750 pavement would be a better easier option.

Tim

No water at the CG's that early in the season.

In the past there has been water below the Rim at Washington Park and then above the Rim in the creek north of General Springs. After that I have always had to go to the ranger station.

I went to Pine spring in June before the rains so it should be good.

I believe there may be a creek at Double Springs there is also the church camp in that area that has been used during the Coco 250 not sure how early they open.

North of Flag is an area referred to as the high and dry. Good thing is it goes fast. According to the water table East Cedar is dry that was a great source in the past. The next best I can think of is Russell Tank. It's a small lake tasted fishy when I used it in 04 shows water table shows it good as of 8/10. In 06 I found water on the north side of the peaks and just barely made Tusayan. I skipped Cedar and Russell both that year. Snowbowl wasn't on the course back then so maybe stocking up there and then make it to Tusayan.

Limited snacks at Phantom Ranch all I can remember is some candy and soda's. They also do a lunch to go service though you don't get much for your money calorie wise. Not sure how late in the day lunches can be picked up but it might be worth looking into. I was thinking of getting the steak dinner and then hiking the rest of the way to Cottonwood CG in the dark. If I get to do the race I won't be trying to hike the whole canyon in one day. It should be easy to get a spot at Cottonwood any time the north rim is closed that one doesn't get as much use. Then hike out the next day.

Crystal was reported good 6/10 so that seems good to go. The wildlife drinker is off the trail in the trees at the edge of a clearing (can be hard to see) should be good if not Dog lake won't be that far back.

I haven't decided if I want to go this year or wait for more of the trail and the official completion next year. 2012 is the State Centennial and the ATA folks want the trail to be complete for that. I have only been waiting 15 years for it so whats one more.

Marshall good luck to you glad this thread has helped in the planning.
Mark glad to see you coming back for more.
Max great to see you representing the home team.

Looking at the snow detours. The first one at Happy Jack starts at a place called Bargaman Park. He has two options here the road one all the way out to the pavement was used last year. All they missed was a bunch of FS roads. Looking at how far out of the way it goes the route on course would have likely been faster. But the other track the one that says may be passable AZT here is well the better way. Better in a more ST more of the official AZT not faster though. What he has as the official course is the old route from before that section got completed. That was going by old intel. The "may be passable" route is all there now, again I will leave it to Scott to set how much of the true trail is on course.

Water note off course near Bargaman Park is Pine Spring it had water in it last June at a time when it hadn't rained for a while so it should be a good source. The only other source after the Blue Ridge passage is Blue Ridge Ranger Station off course.

The little dog leg he has near Anchor Spring and Allen Landing the course is a road section the detour shown is the signed AZT short flatish ST and a bit of 2 track way more fun then the road similar time.

The trail near Fulton Canyon is all pretty fun mostly easy then you cross a main road. Things get more interesting as you near Navajo Spring. From near the spring there is an old 2 track that follows the creek line down from the trail right into the resort. It will be a bit of a climb back to the trail though. It might be tempting to just go all the way to the Double Springs CG and then back track on the flat road for the Resort/resupply. Skipping Mormon would be tough if you are low on food already. If they force us into Mormon Lake so it goes.

The detour by Flag almost looks longer slower on the detour and the course has a bunch of pavement and the new ST after the pavement is a great ride to take kids on from what I hear on line so that part should be easy. Famous last words.

Should be interesting to see how things play out at the canyon. It will be hard to carry enough food for the hike and the trail. The only time both have been done together was Scott's fall of 05 ride. At least there's plenty of water in the beginning of the passage. Crystal spring is right on the trail and the wildlife drinker near Dog Lake is only a couple of hundred feet off. For food there is http://northrimcountrystore.com/default.aspx it would have been closed last year with all of the snow not sure if it would open early on a low snow year. And it's a 5 mile one way side trip from East Rim View but there is still 30 miles to JL, so if it's open.

More of the makes it even better type stuff. As in it will take even longer how much longer? Hard to say I have ridden all of the stuff you missed last year but not all at once in race mode. It is mostly ridable and some of it is 2 track. Nothing above the Mogollon Rim is as bad as most of what comes before it but the ST will be slower that's for sure. 1 to 1.5 days more for each section would be my guess for my pace.

Yes I agree rejoin where you left off make for the clearest rule but it just seems backwards at the point in the middle of the triangle. Once you reach the tip it's not shorter by any means and all you miss of the course is different flat roads. I'll leave it to the Doctor of Mapoligy to make the call. Sounds like every thing we need is right on course unless you need a bike shop there's no point in going west of Mnt View and Superstition hwy. The whole triangle is only about 11 miles anyway 7 to go out to the point 4 for the straight north on course way. Hopefully no one needs the bikes shop anyway.

Thanks Mark good info for sure.

Sounds like there are stores right on route and then everything else less the 6 easy miles west of the course. Assuming you mean heading west where the route turns north or did you go north and then back southwest. Sounds more like you stayed on course and made the connection from hwy 60 to hwy 88 aka Apache Trail and then headed SW on AT into town.

Not sure where Scott is on urban routes. We had talked about not requiring riders to take the short cut through towns if they needed services and then letting riders rejoin the course on the way out.

Obviously those not needing services make better time by going the short route but if you are heading farther in it makes no sense to retrace back on course. In the case of AJ the course and the two highways make a huge triangle. We'll have to see what Scott thinks about people just staying on hwy 60 into town services and then hit AT right at the junction. Also any opinion from you guys on this metro clause?

I'll be working on the water list for that section next. But like Mark said it's pretty fast. There is water  and a resort and CG at Canyon Lake off course. Also there is water and showers at La Cholla CG.

There can be a lot of traffic on the beginning paved part of Apache Trail but there's really nothing past Tortilla Flat.  

Here's the water list from the end of the 300 to Pine.

#28.   Town of Superior (Cstore, restaurants, motel)      5 miles off course highway or LOST trail
#29.   Apache Jct (fast food on course everything else including bike shop off course)
#30.   Tortilla Flat (restaurant, water) (water at CG across road)   17 miles from AJ
#31   Burnt Corral CG (water spigot)             19 miles form Tortilla Flat      
#32   Cholla CG (water, showers, fee campground)      10.5 from Burnt Corral
#33.   Punkin Center (Cstore spigot after hours, restaurant)     13 miles from Cholla CG
#34   Jakes Corner (Cstore, Bar and Grill)            10 miles from Punkin Center
#35   Rye (restaurant)                  8.5 from Jakes   
#36   Payson (everything including Bike shop closed Sundays)   on course
#37   Pine (Cstore, restaurants, cabins) off course there is a 2 track to stay off highway.   22  miles from Payson

I can't remember what all was on course at AJ I remember the fast food. Mark do you know was there a Cstore there also. Seems like there was a big motel there as well.

After Pine it's the AZT all the way. I'll be reworking the water table from a bike stand point as well but for now.
http://www.fredgaudetphotography.com/aztrail/watercurrent.pdf

I got a copy of the LOST track not sure if Scott will add it to the GPX file or what but I sent it to him. Seems like a good way to get to Superior from the Picketpost TH. Stay on the AZT and cross under the highway to Hewett Station road (same as the 750 course) but turn right and follow the RR tracks signed with Carsonites with LOST Logo and American Flags. 4.5 miles one one quite a bit of it's old 2 track so it might not be that slow going. Crosses back under and then around through Old Pinal Townsite comes out about 1/2 a mile from town by the airport. Might not be quicker then the highway but at least you can stay off of it most of the way.

I know DogSaver has the same idea. Do you mean the Picketpost TH or in the town of Superior.

Not sure where in town, pretty sure rigs have been left at the TH it's pretty remote so less lowlife traffic out there. Not sure I would leave anything in town unless you can come up with a secure local. I was told not to lay my bike down in Superior "not even if you are standing next to it" of course that was in a pretty sketchy part of town.

I know one guy left a rig a Parker TH as well but I would think getting them back to Tucson makes the most sense.

I have had both spring adjustable (rockshox psylo) and then the Talas. I had the pre Sram rockshox and the quality was nothing compared to after Sram. The big difference I found with the Talas was that I could change the travel on the fly both up and down. With the spring it's not really possible to go up on the fly only down. Not that big of a deal if you are stopping anyway.

Talas is a sweet fork I had one on my last 26r Fox didn't have a 29r yet when I bought the Reba. I have heard great things about Marzocchi as well.

Yeah yeah 'even better' sure, right --ha this old man likes the idea of doing it before it gets 'even better'

Yeah better is a matter of opinion of course. The big dirt road detour down to the diversion dam and then back to the AZT. As apposed to the new ST around the White Canyon Wilderness. The new route should be shorter mileage wise and the average trail grade should be pretty low. But it's some rough country so travel will not be easy. I have seen several sections some before and some after the ST was built and I can only say wow it's cool up there.

Marshal for an "old man" you have been putting in some pretty respectable times on the 300 course. But yeah I hear you I am only 47 but I do feel it some days. Laddie Cox the guy who has the track for the LOST trail is nearly 80. He was at one time the oldest person to hike all of the AZT in passages. The guy acts like a teenager you just can't get him to stop working on the trail (they put me in charge of getting him back to the campsite) I finally had to tell him he was getting me in trouble and could we please head back.  

That's cool to hear and next year the course should get even better. More ST and a more direct route north of the Gila. Also 2012 is the AZ centennial so the ATA hopes to call it the official year of completion.

Yes there is water on the east side of Molino saddle but its the brownish tannin stuff and then you have to carry it all the way up and over as well.

On my 04 trip I had a 9 liter MSR and a 3 liter camel as well as a 2 liter camel. Man I was paranoid back then.

So there are 5 people who have replied to this thread and it feels like a lot considering that for several years there were only 3 of us who seemed to have any interest in riding the real AZT.