Not have to do Oracle ridge in the middle of a gale, starting as the sun drops, having only found out about the possibility of bears from the sign at the entrance to the trail, and with 3 stops to mend 11 punctures during the night? Noooooooooo! How could I possibly miss it?!

Hi Jonesy - planning this for next year then?

Oracle Ridge is in prime shape right now, well at least the top 2 miles, FS went in and cleared all of the down trees. Of course any winter storms are likely to drop more, rumor has it that we might get a segment steward for that part. It would certainly help to get some work done out there.

damn, just when I'm getting myself psyched for "only" 750 miles you go ahead and want to make it longer haha

I guess I am going to get what I deserve if I get to go this spring. First I ask for a little more ST and now Scott says he is looking at even more in between Picket Post and the Apache Trail. I've lost the stats from my 06 trip but I remember it being a very high percentage of ST, getting of of US 60 would bump it up even higher.

While we are talking about doing the Azt 300 at different times of the year, what about doing it in Febuary?
I live in Bellevue, Wa ,go down for two weeks to Cave Creek and want to do this ride so bad! What do you guys think? Also I figure I better start posting instead of trolling all the time.  

Depends on the snow pack on Mount Lemon of course there is a way around that. Just depends on how much snow. Most years I should think you could use the Control road so you would only miss Oracle Ridge, and that's not a bad thing in some ways. Worst case if we have a big snow year like last year you could do the Jonesy bypass but it's farther.

My guess is it can be done most years.

Same stuff as above short cool days cold nights not that it can't be done just a little harder to move fast.

I thought we started on Friday the first time that seems to make the most sense to me as it bridges the weekend. Anything to keep from running the gauntlet of yahoos on Munds Park road on Saturday.

The hiker parade around Sedona didn't bother me as much as it slowed me down, but I didn't mind it.

I would think that an thru rider would end up either loosing time or not even really meeting the stagers anyway. I would say the the thru riders should have to start early if anything to keep them on the straight thru game. IMO if they are not stage racing it should be more like an ITT ie no moral or other support from the lowly stage racers. Just my .02.

No sternum strap no waist belt I can see this thing flying all over the place.

I guess you could sew something on.

I have a similar pack and did just that but it just never carried as well as my Osprey does.

The only thing I would say was that starting on Saturday this year put us out there with too many cars the first day. Sunday in Sedona was crazy but that may have had more to do with the holiday.

Car campers the second night will likely be something we just have to deal with and can they be any loader the the lost bikepackers out there.

I guess you could move the whole thing to happen during the week. It means taking more work days off but people have to take time on either side of the weekend as it is so it might be fine.

What about the coco 250, is it rideable in early december?

Just depends on when they get the first snow storm of the year and how big it is.

Oh and sleeping on top of Mingus would be cold!

Just did an overnighter on the AZT south of Tucson and it was pretty cold at night also as has been pointed out the days are pretty short.

I have a fair bit of experience with dry bags used on river trips the key thing is getting a good seal when you wrap the top. To achieve this it is key that the bag be no more then half full. My sister did one over night guided river trip her biggest complaint was that the guides only let her use half of the bag they gave her. When she mentioned this to me I said well if you didn't care if you shit got wet you could have fill it more.

A good quality dry bag properly sealed will keep your down bag dry though on river trips when I take the down it is in two dry bags. First in a small one by itself then in side of a bigger one with other stuff.

For bikepacking I use an older river bag just for my pad and ground sheet not really to keep it dry it's just a good size for that item and I put it on the bars.

For the seat post bag I have an Epic that was dry at first but over time it has developed several small holes at different wear points. If I think it may rain I stuff the down bag in side of a plastic garbage bag.

Jacks makes the best most durable dry bags on the market but I doubt they would work for bikepacking http://www.jpwinc.com/

The bag I use on my bars is similar to these http://www.outdoorresearch.com/site/window_dry_bags.html mine predates the window.

I have heard good things about these bags http://www.seatosummit.com/products/display/1 I just can't figure out how a waterproof bag can be compressed if the air can get out how is it that water can't get in.

I see that Sea to Summit does recommend double bagging electronics I would say the same for down.

Hope that helps.

Tim

Mid October should be fine it stayed warm this year upper 80's finally cooling off now mid 70's this week. No snow yet just depends on the year but I can't see one early storm shutting you down. Worst case maybe you would have to do the Control road instead of Oracle Ridge.

Well I was a bit disappointed not to find any water at Molino Basin oh well.

We did stop in at the Summerhaven Visitors Center currently the restrooms are open 24 7 and you can get water out of the drinking fountain. The volunteer did not think that would change and he was able to say for certain they would stay open during the day time.

We stopped in at the store to see our buddy Max it was his last day working there. The store will be closed for the first two weeks in December and reopen on the 17th. They are open 6 days a week closed on Wednesdays. Max seems to think it will snow the 3rd week of December that may help with finding water but I wouldn't worry about it. 

I used a Hiker pro for years now I have http://cascadedesigns.com/msr/water-treatment-and-hydration/fast-and-light-water-treatment-and-hydration/hyperflow-microfilter/product so far it is working great. Smaller then the Hiker and way faster I also like that it has a back flush. I also like the way the prefilter works.

In a side by side test I had my old Hiker my buddy had the new Hyperflow the Hyperflow won hands down. He pumped more water faster and my paper filter was ruined by the silty water all he had to do was back flush.

I had to do something the choices were to by a new paper filter their up to $40 now or spend almost $100 on a whole new system I chose the new system. So far I am quite happy with it fast, light, compact what more do you need.

I can't see taking the time to boil and just using tabs or drops won't clean away silt and particulates I guess I am fussy about my water and I am will to carry the extra weight.

Tim

More BS posts http://www.bikepacking.net/forum/index.php?topic=1550.0 some kind of flag or report button would be great.

I would think lights and at least some night riding would be mandatory that time of year.

Planning to head up Catalina Highway this weekend I'll stop and check the Molino water hole.

Yep desert temps should be great that time of year. As for the Catalina's I wouldn't worry too much about it as you can always take the Control road instead of the Oracle Ridge Trail plus it's supposed to be a dry year. That could be a down side though in terms of water though there are several fixed sources out there. Getting to Tucson shouldn't be an issue north of Oracle is really the big haul but there should be water at the Freeman road cache.

I have actually been working on a full water source list for the bike route similar to the on at the ATA web site http://www.fredgaudetphotography.com/aztrail/watercurrent.pdf but based on the bike route. I have also been meaning to get up to Molino Basin and check out my secret water hole. As it hasn't rained in several weeks now is a good time to check it I'll let you know what I find.

Not sure stage racing should be run on the "classic" routes, with growth and the future in mind the stops would need public toilets. The unique route of the Coconino was great, but if in 10 years there are 30 people doing it, low impact bike packing might not be so low impact.
 Now I`m tempted to come up with a route in my area. I would look for some backwoods campgrounds. We could remain self supported and be around a bit more public for the stage stops, maybe invite family. The stage format will get more people out there, that is good.
 Starting in 10 minute intervals is thought. 
 

Good points Dan. Though I think most of it could be worked out if need be. If we go up the east side you might get to the point where you had to rent Kentucky Camp. If you knew you had a group that big we would have to start planning for either restrooms or people could bring wag bags if that's what it came to. That would work for the Overlook or any time you could ditch it pretty quickly.

Starting at 9:00 (or as close to it) as usual the ultra endurance crowd starts at a set time and those guys go out en mass, I should think that's a big part of that race. Stage racers keep their own time and leave when they are ready just like we did in Flagstaff. There has yet to be a mass start for the Coco only one person each year has started in that mode. I would think that that side of it has no stage stop rights that race stays on a running clock the same for everyone from the start.

Here we went from thinking no one would take that much time to thinking there will be a crowd of 30. At this point it looks like one person has shown an interest in three months if it looks like more then 12 maybe I should be worried. Can open worms schralping all over the place.

Can't both be done at the same time?  Meaning you have the thru racers and the stage racers.  Just a thought.

If I understand you right yes both can be done at the same time that's how its been for the Coconino 250. And that's what I meant, never meant to take anything away from the full on thru racers. And in no way thinking that the stage style can compare physically or mentally. Thou perhaps there are some different strategies.

Also it might be better to have the stage race start on a different day. Only because it might fit better in the frame work of taking a full weeks vacation for those working stiffs out there. Starting on Friday works good for guys or gals who can finish in under 3 days. It might make more sense to start the 5 days on a Sunday or Monday.

Yep making it a stage race definitely makes it easier. I would likely not have brought it up if not for the other post on stage racing (most notably that Scott didn't seem opposed to it).

Obviously people racing in stages will have it a lot easier then then the die hard through riders (sleep deprivation crowd).

I have started in all but one (missed the first) AZT 300 this year was the first time that I have seen many of the other racers. Seems like a lot of the riders are so far above me that they are just gone and I never see them again. I can't even compare myself to any of these guys and I don't even try to keep up with them.

This year I had a plan to finish in 6 days I mostly camped in the places I had planned and things went pretty well. It seems quite feasible to push things a bit more for a 5 day time frame the true Ultra racers will have been done for 2 plus days and will most likely be back at work by then.   

Tim

The idea of doing the AZT 300 in stages came up on the Coco 250 thread http://www.bikepacking.net/forum/index.php/topic,1084.0.html

The question is would anyone be interested in taking a full week off of work to do the course in reasonable sections say 50-60 miles a day.

It wouldn't be that hard to come up with some good spots to camp it's just a matter of is there any interest.

It's still a ways off more then 5 months to plan ahead Scott usually has the date set sometime in mid January plenty of time to put in for vacation time.

Spent last weekend working on the AZT up by Pine, picked the brains of regional segment steward John Rendall sounds like more of the AZT is looking clear. Also new construction has started in the White Canyon area (paid crew working full time). Being on the AZT always gets me amped up and leaves me itching to do the full ride again.

I am lobbying Scott to had more single track to next years race. There are a couple of section that were left out last year for various reasons.

First Ripsey Hill left out on account of limited single track on north side of river. Check out Chads write up and great pics http://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.php?t=616895 adding Ripsey and crossing the Gila at the Kelvin Bridge. This eliminates the big road stretch west to the diversion dam and adds new single track on the North side of the river. Depending on how much the paid crew gets done some version of the http://www.bikepacking.net/routes/gila-river-ramble/ will get one back on course.

Second El Oso road and Boulder Creek to Gold Ridge Trail left out do to impassable over growth on Boulder Creek section. Check out down hiller's work on Gold Ridge http://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.php?t=507909&highlight=Gold+Ridge+trail recent intel has it that the Boulder Creek trail is passable again. This eliminates the highway stretch after Roosevelt Lake and goes over Mazatzal Ridge eventually using the Gold Ridge Trail to rejoin the route near Rye.

So what say you potential AZT Schralpers how much is too much.  

I must save time for the 250 next year, looks like a blast! I like the idea of the new format. Was the thought of knowing that you would see your friends at the end of the day a motivating factor when times got tough? Any plans to try the format with the AZT300 or other events? I am looking forward to the AZT this year!

Thanks- JF

Stage racing bikepacking style is great knowing there are people hanging out really helps on the second day. It would be really hard for me to keep going up and up on Mingus just to camp solo.

A 6 day AZT 300 stage race would be great but I doubt Scott would want to do it that way. At least not the night after everyone comes down Oracle Ridge. There have been death threats and it is good to let people cool off and savor the accomplishment before they have to see him.