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21  Forums / Ultra Racing / Re: Tour Divide 2022 - Race Discussion on: June 22, 2022, 07:13:13 PM
BROOM, 30-day dot/marker:
I may have missed this somewhere, but I haven't seen the 'BROOM/s' before on the Tour Divide Trackleaders map.
Previously there were 25, 30-day markers and riders behind these dots turned 'white' i.e. touring. I thought touring was less than a 90-mile-per-day average. There are 2 brooms, one for women (90 miles per day average) and the other for men (100 miles per day average). My questions are:
1) Is this a new rule i.e. 90/100 women/men?
2) Is there a reason for removing the 25-day, and 30-day dot when the men/women, men ss/women ss (single speed) record dots are still showing?
3) I assume if anyone overtakes the women/men broom their dot will return to pink/blue (SOBO)?
Thanks - hopefully, someone can shed some light on the above.......

Not really a new rule, no.  It's been in the confirmation of understanding for years (about what touring pace is) and some years dots were turned white manually.  This year it's automatic,  so yes, riders can go back to blue/pink if they get ahead of the brooms.  A few riders did just that this evening.  Unfortunately the brooms don't sleep so they will likely get passed back tonight...

It's a TDF / road racing term, for those that haven't heard it:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Broom_wagon

Really hope it functions as a motivator for folks out there.  That's the goal.  Keep ahead of the Broom Wagon!!!
22  Forums / Ultra Racing / Re: Tour Divide 2022 - Race Discussion on: June 22, 2022, 07:09:53 PM
I don't recall ever having a reroute due to MUD.  Has this happened before?
Doesn't look like Adrien received word of this reroute.
What happens after Cuba?  Looks like Sofiane has dealt with his share of mud today.

Orange line for the paved detours will be on the tracker shortly.

Every year there's been a 'potential mud' detour on the section Sofiane rode today.  TD is reverting to pavement on that and the new Chama/NM112 route due to the conditions Manu encountered today and the wet forecast through the weekend.
23  Forums / Ultra Racing / Re: Tour Divide 2022 - Race Discussion on: June 22, 2022, 09:33:58 AM


Seems Manu was stopped on the side of the road when Jeff came by....from their speed looks like they are walking. Diner seems likely, though I see Jeff at the RV park now. With Jeff with him I'm wondering if it's a health-related issue

Interesting, good sleuthing.  I would have thought the road around the reservoir would be more mud prone or less improved but he made good time there.  It's a lesser road than where he slowed/stopped, but more important than road improvement is a change in soil type, which may be what happens there.

Plenty of rain for everyone in NM right now.
24  Forums / Ultra Racing / Re: Tour Divide 2022 - Race Discussion on: June 22, 2022, 07:59:40 AM
Spoke too soon, he's still moving, but not quickly.

#2535 on 08:51:54 AM (MDT) 06/22/22 (2 minutes ago) 0.5 mi traveled at 5.9 mph
#2534 on 08:46:54 AM (MDT) 06/22/22 (7 minutes ago) 40 ft traveled at 0.1 mph
#2533 on 08:41:57 AM (MDT) 06/22/22 (12 minutes ago) 1066 ft traveled at 2.4 mph
#2532 on 08:36:57 AM (MDT) 06/22/22 (17 minutes ago) 0.4 mi traveled at 4.3 mph
#2531 on 08:31:57 AM (MDT) 06/22/22 (22 minutes ago) 0.8 mi traveled at 9.7 mph
#2530 on 08:27:00 AM (MDT) 06/22/22 (27 minutes ago) 0.4 mi traveled at 5.0 mph
#2529 on 08:22:00 AM (MDT) 06/22/22 (32 minutes ago) 0.5 mi traveled at 5.5 mph
#2528 on 08:17:00 AM (MDT) 06/22/22 (37 minutes ago) 0.6 mi traveled at 6.6 mph
#2527 on 08:11:59 AM (MDT) 06/22/22 (42 minutes ago) 0.4 mi traveled at 5.1 mph
#2526 on 08:06:59 AM (MDT) 06/22/22 (47 minutes ago) 732 ft traveled at 1.9 mph
25  Forums / Ultra Racing / Re: Tour Divide 2022 - Race Discussion on: June 22, 2022, 07:28:29 AM
Whoa, that's some rain.  We will find out if adding the Cuba dirt was a good idea or not.  So far speeds seem to be OK for Sofiane.
26  Forums / Ultra Racing / Re: Tour Divide 2022 - Race Discussion on: June 21, 2022, 05:42:34 PM
Bets on that Sofiane beats Mike Hall's dot to Cuba !! 100 miles on the road vs Polvadera Mesa


I would have taken that bet -- looks like MH will stay just ahead but certainly SS made up a lot of time there.  I think the Cuba dirt will actually be faster for SS -- it's less mileage overall.  Then he should really jump head with the Gila detour at the end.  It's a quick run no matter how you dice it!
27  Forums / Ultra Racing / Re: Tour Divide 2022 - Race Discussion on: June 19, 2022, 08:18:36 AM
Good to see Pete Basinger back on route.

He had to source a new rear wheel -- his hub died on him.  Too bad because he was taking it real conservative, said he felt like he wasn't even racing.

Is there a way to see Trackleader distances in kilometers?

Sorry, no -- a map is either in KM or Miles, but the user can't pick.  Hopefully in the future.

Emergency services in Fernie is seeking donations to help recover the costs of rescuing TD riders.  Here is the link:  https://ferniesar.ca/donate/

Yes, anyone who can, please do.  Thanks for posting.  It helps not only TD but the GDMBR as well.  I certainly will be making a donation.

I have a sick feeling the whip is about to come down on the TD.  With earlier fire seasons and rescues it is only a matter of time before some desk jockey in the District of Criminals or their Canadian counterparts starts making noise about us.  We really need to be good citizens and minimize the negative impact on the small communities we pass through.  I have met many wonderful and helpful people on the parts of the route I rode.  So maybe it is time to give back a little, top off your Karma.

I think things are OK but this year is feeling a little more tenuous than usual, certainly.  As always the onus is on the riders (and occasionally, visitors/media) to be on their best behavior, as you say.  It is not just the rescues causing an impact this year, unfortunately.  There are reports of a 'media' crew blocking a road to the ire of locals, private coolers being raided, motels trashed, etc.  We can do better than all of this.
28  Forums / Ultra Racing / Re: AZTR 2022 Announcements on: June 19, 2022, 08:06:10 AM
While true, the amount of misunderstanding around RD's decisions is probably correlated with how far from transparent they are. And more generally, I think we have way more control over these "shit storms" than we admit. From the way things are communicated, to the processes around these decisions, to the underlying rules, etc. Who knows how many unpleasant situations could have been prevented regardless of what the rider did. I am saying this because there were suggestions in this thread that Lael should've communicated things better to her fan base, that she could've been more transparent about her intentions, etc. As valid as those demands are, I don't see many such questions being asked inward: was the relegation communicated/explained well? Was the decision transparent enough? Etc.

You are right that things on the RD/community side could have been handled better and more transparency would help.  We do have more control than we admit, absolutely.  I guess when I hear high expectations like these being applied to RDs who are doing this as a service to a community vs. a rider who is doing it for a living (with a large following and therefore a large responsibility), well, the comparison breaks down a little.  But I agree otherwise with what you're saying.

Quote

I've heard this before, yes. That said, I am unsure whether it's a justified fear (in the scheme of things). Who cares about the opinions of uninformed internet trolls? The rest seems quite civilized - not always pleasant, but civilized enough.

I might agree with this except that one rider lost his sponsorship / livelihood as a result of the canceling. 

The footprint of this year's TD is sizeable already in the first week: https://fernie.com/blog/bike-race-consumes-search-and-rescue/. On top of that some are normalizing sleeping in post offices (as something we all do, which we don't) https://www.instagram.com/p/CeyhsaSLRAe/?igshid=YmMyMTA2M2Y=.

Yep, it's been an eventful TD so far -- and not just with these rescues.  I was happy that the Fernie 'press' there was quite right to point out that the event provides no support (and thus no responsibility) -- that riders are fully on their own when out there.

I don't think that's the point though. While it matters what he does, it matters more what he advertises (24k followers).

Yep with 'fame' comes 'responsibility'.
29  Forums / Ultra Racing / Re: Tour Divide 2022 - Race Discussion on: June 13, 2022, 05:23:14 PM

Yep, I've seen crazy footage -- you going to go hit it at 50k CFS?

Matthew is on the case, working whatever contacts at the park he has (and he has a few... ask us about the time a rider accidentally rode singletrack in the park, then had to get rescued).  Hopefully they will let riders slip through Flagg Ranch, but we'll see.

If not I just loaded a reroute for TransAM.
30  Forums / Ultra Racing / Re: Tour Divide 2022 - Race Discussion on: June 12, 2022, 10:36:21 AM
I think you are right that Koko Claims was added in 2017, the next year.  So it's not fully a fair comparison.  And of course with conditions, it's rarely fair!

Seems like Sofiane and his chase group will miss the atmospheric river and may just get 'regular' rain. So the strategy may pay off in that sense.

31  Forums / Ultra Racing / Re: Tour Divide 2022 - Race Discussion on: June 12, 2022, 09:42:19 AM
Glad to see a couple folks calling in!

I just added record dots and green pace flags, too.  They speak to slower conditions overall thus far in the 2022 race, I think.
32  Forums / Ultra Racing / Re: Tour Divide 2022 - Race Discussion on: June 11, 2022, 05:04:36 PM
No sleep kit!  That's bold.  Should be interesting with two nights of rain on tap.
33  Forums / Ultra Racing / Re: Tour Divide 2022 - Race Discussion on: June 10, 2022, 07:12:14 PM
We will be adding people's start times (in the Grand Depart) to the tracking map soon, but for now here is more or less how it went:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1l0T2AzQTmzeUkODuMglZqtPntfByO_LyJv9p0QcGxcM/edit#gid=462702007

It needs updating because we need to hear back from some people as to when they actually started.

But it is interesting as a sorted list of riders by 'goal finish days', too.
34  Forums / Ultra Racing / Re: Tour Divide 2022 - Race Discussion on: June 10, 2022, 06:49:35 PM
Good people to watch there, thanks.

Has anyone looked at the forecast for .... anywhere along the northern 500 miles of the route?  An atmospheric river is predicted to move in bringing 100% chances of rain (including all night) and risk of flooding.  That's from Sunday through Tuesday.  This should be quite interesting! 

The leaders would do well to get to Whitefish before all that really ramps up.  From there is a long paved stretch followed by some firm roads.

Popping the popcorn!
35  Forums / Ultra Racing / Tour Divide 2022 - Race Discussion on: June 10, 2022, 12:24:04 PM
It's been three years since the last Grand Depart in Banff and everyone is excited!

Tracker:

https://trackleaders.com/tourdivide22f

Hopefully a bunch of folks will be calling in to MTBCast:

http://mtbcast.com/site2/


Who are your favorites at this point?  I'm going with the Strempke's (Andrew and Katie) for overall wins on their singlespeeds!  Not only are they super strong, they are awesome, humble folks.

Roughly 170 riders took the start in Banff (in 10 minute start waves), with a much smaller group going northbound from Antelope Wells.
36  Forums / Ultra Racing / Re: AZTR 2022 Announcements on: June 10, 2022, 10:55:35 AM
One thing that keeps dragging with us is that decisions and actions are justified by private information. Why are we then surprised that the general public isn't understanding of the situation? Maybe it isn't so much the rules but the overall non transparency in the process that's causing friction? Don't know, just thinking.

Transparency is another ideal to strive towards but we will always fall short.

I'm afraid to say that a big part of the problem here is the fear of being 'canceled'.  That has a huge affect on making people not want to speak publicly about things.

I see, it's probably an effective trick too. Although, FB group might provide the event with more exposure than a small website. So the key difference is then probably that it isn't run by the RD. Maybe the same thing could work with a website. It would be on others (us) to run it then. Though results would be hard to publish without a word from the RD... So it might not be such a good plan. Don't know.

TD would very much like for the FB group to go away.  It helps in some areas and causes issues in others.  But yes, I would like to see something worked out where open source results (and rules?) can be out there with some authority but not too much authority.  It's tricky.
37  Forums / Ultra Racing / Re: AZTR 2022 Announcements on: June 10, 2022, 10:36:43 AM
Hey Scott juts playing internet tough guy keyboard worrier, it's not for me to say. I would have thought not dying would trump all other rules, I talked with Doc about ruptured spleen's he said it's real easy to miss, no one should die and DNF themselves from life for the race.

Yep, I know that you get it, Tim.

Maybe this spleen case was one-off and I'm being overly worried with respect to sleeping in public places, etc.  But that case really spooked me -- that he almost died... for race rules.
38  Forums / Ultra Racing / Re: AZTR 2022 Announcements on: June 09, 2022, 03:20:19 PM
I have to say this is pretty clear with regards to personal vs neutral media. So that's undoubtedly good. Apart from that, it's all about the self support angle. I guess the TD doesn't worry too much about the footprint as it has loads of road sections.

It's a bit less of a concern for non-singletrack races.  Public roads vs trails that are created and maintained by volunteers. 

But yes, all about self-support here, though the same page is all about minimizing effect on route locals, commercial establishments, etc.  There is still a big responsibility of racers towards the route and the event.

For example this year Parks Canada is requiring start waves and we're hoping everyone will comply, for the future of TD.

Quote
On a related note, did anyone think of setting up a TD website as GitHub page? All changes would be logged and timestamped, changes can be submitted by anyone, discussions can be had there directly, etc. Maintenance minimal. And everything would be public (if you train for 2 years to do a TD, it's kind of late to be presented with the rules at the sign up to trackleaders, imo) so people know what they are heading into. Results should also be public, otherwise breaking rules doesn't have visible consequences in most cases. Anyways, just an idea.

Not a bad idea.  Matthew likes that the website is out of date and results are not officially published.  It keeps the event underground to a certain extent.  I don't necessarily agree because it has other consequences, some of which we've discussed here.
39  Forums / Ultra Racing / Re: AZTR 2022 Announcements on: June 09, 2022, 03:12:14 PM
I've said this a few times already, but let me repeat. They pretty much did what Josh Ibbett had done at TD19. If he was ever relegated as Scott said, it has not been publicly recorded anywhere (so nobody knows about it, including them presumably). All public records suggest or state he finished fifth (not relegated finish). There was no major, or even minor, outrage about it. What they did at AZTR22 had worked at TD19.

Huh, and yet when she was asked about it that wasn't mentioned.  It would be nice if you didn't keep repeating things for which you have no evidence.  Or at least state them as such -- a mere possibility, and an unlikely one at that.

What she did say is she didn't think race rules applied as much to ITTs and that nobody cared during her 2015 filmed AZT ITT that I approved (while missing key differences between that project and this one).

As further backgound here she did ask permission for filming a CTR ITT, in 2021 I believe.  She posted that Rue wasn't going to be in the state of Colorado during the attempt, in deference to Jefe's wishes.  But then that attempt was canceled for unrelated reasons.  So, no, I really don't think they are using the Josh example (which is another case of not understanding the differences).

It's still a bit of a head scratcher.  Given the CTR situation I thought that she had accepted that personal media crews were not going to fly in the triple crown races.  But I was wrong.
40  Forums / Ultra Racing / Re: AZTR 2022 Announcements on: June 09, 2022, 09:43:41 AM
I think it's safe to say that for almost everyone who has done a US-style bikepacking race the reading of the rules is obvious (not banning all media, talking about a support crew, etc).  But we must allow for those with a different background and those that have possibly been misled, too.

Holt, I agree it is quite puzzling.  Lael invited me over to dinner a week or two before her ITT.  Her concern at the time was not getting an official record because she might need to skip singletrack on the North Rim due to snow.  I encouraged her to ride anyway and not worry about records or any possible asterisks.  She seemed keen to ride and I always try to encourage people to ride anyway.  Whether Rue was going to follow along was not mentioned, kind of the elephant in the room.  Since I'm not the RD I didn't feel it was my job to bring it up.

An index to major (and epic!) rules discussions is a decent idea, for those with too much time on their hands!

In other news, from TD 2022, in all CAPS!

IMPORTANT: SINCE 2019 EDITION OF TD, MUCH HAS BEEN DEBATED OVER THE ROLE OF MEDIA (ON COURSE) IN SELF-SUPPORTED DIVIDE RACING. WHILE TD IS NOT YET READY TO BAN ALL MEDIA, ENTIRELY, FOR GRAND DEPARTS, PERSONAL MEDIA TEAMS FOCUSING ON AN INDIVIDUAL RIDER WITH INTENT TO FOLLOW THEM ON COURSE CAN INJECT UNDUE MORAL HAZARD INTO THE EQUATION. IT HAS THE NET EFFECT OF SECURITY BLANKET FOR A RIDER ON THE EDGE, AND THUS POSES ARTIFICIAL PSYCHOLOGICAL UPLIFT.  THEREFORE, IT WILL BE DEEMED AS A FORM OF SUPPORT GOING FORWARD. TRUE ALONENESS IS PRIMARY TO THE TD CHALLENGE AND A PERSONAL MEDIA TEAM CONFLICTS WITH THIS TENET.

Edit: these are not my words.  I wouldn't write in all caps.  They were attributed to me on the TD FB group where some discussion has ensued, mostly in support.
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