John's route changes have definitely added some complexity to the race logistically.

Splitting the difference between Patagonia and Sonita ruined a good ice cream stop. The wide berth around Flagstaff hurts a little too. It's the only chance I had to use my Frys card.

Best of luck out there davew!

The loss of sonoita/patagonia does kinda stink for the reason you mentioned, but it isn't too bad really. The good thing is, if you have a super bad day in the canelos, they are still close enough to serve as a refuge to regroup/recover if you had to. Regarding the route around flag, there is still a really good 24 hour resupply basically right on route crossing the 89. If you needed/wanted more services, it isn't that much further to take advantage of those.

...I'm pro Lael she does a lot of good on the bike and off....I'd like to see her line up at the group start (no BS) and kick ass.   

I really looked up and admired Lael before the most recent controversy. Hard to completely dismiss her positive impact to under-represented communities, though in my opinion some (lots??) of the shine of that is tarnished due to the price that others pay/have paid in the fallout of the controversies. It's sad because the outrage towards race directors and rule supporters could have been quelled if Lael would have asked for it to be. She didn't, and that is not excusable.

To your point about wanting to see her line up with no BS... I think that's what everybody wants. She's strong as hell. But no second party videos/pictures means nobody is inspired I guess.

While deep diving down into the minutiae of the rules has been interesting to a limited extent I feel it is akin to a meeting making amendments to a 30 page definition on what the missionary position is. 99.99% of us would understand a one sentence explanation and have adequate gumption to at least get the basics right to achieve the desired goal.

This is amazing and almost lost a sip of coffee. Well done.

I can't really tell what water caches Lael was using or why. The topic just made me think about a hypothetical scenario of re-stocking/pre-stocking the cache. In which case it wouldn't be selfish to use it. Caches in general are forbidden though, so it seems like a bad idea. But then water caches are exempted. So that's what made me ask.

Based on what was documented in the film, and the lack of time spent at normal "filtering" spots (according to trackleaders dots) I'm going to make the assumption that any water cache she came upon was fair game. Outside of the aforementioned freeman cache (that's the one where she is talking to the other hiker at ~10:00 in the vid) everything else should really be considered hiker only. Especially given the pace which she rides at. I am a much slower rider (thus needing more water in theory) and I have no issues with carrying enough still struggled to carry enough at times. The trail has gotten so busy in fact that many of the other caches are not even close to being guaranteed. Allowing a personal film crew to place water at every possible hiker cache for a rider changes the game entirely. Maybe they stocked each cache with 10 gallons (doubtful, but maybe). While a kind gesture for those behind her, it is an unfair advantage knowing you have guaranteed "public" water at each cache.

Too bad they couldn't get the crew back to the water collector after the gila so she wouldn't have gotten thirsty heading to picketpost.

Is it my imagination but around minute 10:00 it seems to jump from riding somewhere near oracle to an alpine area further north and then back to the ride into Freeman cache or am I mistaken?

There definitely was some jumping around that wouldn't be noticed by anyone who wasn't familiar with the route.

I'm sure John stacked up those interview checks right next to the RD pay stubs haha!

A couple thoughts regarding the article (which I thought was fair enough)

1. While a google search might take you to the old site, it is very clear for anybody reading it that it is archived as one of the first things you read is WEBSITE IS NO LONGER ACTIVE
2. While someone I guess could say that they used the old site to gather information, it is clear that the new GPX, not to mention the current record holders are only published on the new one.
3. Regarding water - It is clearly documented on video and now confirmed even more in the article that water planning was not a big concern for Lael and team. Seemed way thirstier than she should have been at canelo pass rd, documented using public caches multiple times and maybe the biggest sin of all - stating in the article that she was out of water for the 5 hours leading into picketpost. Could have avoided that issue pretty easily by taking a right hand turn up to the rain water collector near at martinez canyon... One last thought regarding this. The video sure seems to try to make a point that "here Lael, now I can give you this bottle of water" at stateline. Seemed really "forced" in my mind.

Water caches are the source of some of the biggest conflicts on the trail. Last thing anyone needs is thinking that the magic water fairies are out at all times replenishing water caches. Next thing you know someone will take her words in the video as a free pass to go out on day rides in dry areas and utilizing those like it's a tap. This message presented by her in the video is in my opinion even more troubling  than the actual FKT/supported discussion.

BTW, in general, I suspect people underestimate how physical condition affects mental state. Especially in the race (not FKT/ITT). I think you make fewer mistakes if you're coping physically, you ride smarter (e.g. keeping momentum), you pick better lines, you're lighter on your bike, you think ahead, you have energy to cope with elements, etc. All this makes for an easier ride - mentally. It also helps you avoid mechanicals and you're left with some mental capacity to foresee trouble. I agree physical condition isn't everything, but someone here said that the game is 80% mental. I think that's far from the truth. That said, I meant overall "prepared", not just physically.

Gotcha and agree that physical is a huge part of it - though I still think the wait x number of years is harsh. I scratched from the 300 version of this event (ITT) in 2021 due to knee issues prior to the final 30 miles. It would really suck to have to wait to try again, especially as I have completed other multi day routes since then. That may just be me being selfish though I think in general most people who are lining up for at least the AZTR know what they are getting into. It might not be a terrible idea if the event starts to attract larger numbers to maybe contemplate using some kind of qualifier... that gets real iffy though as Scott said and very subjective and opens the door to more "gatekeeping" discussions accusations. That's a no win situation for everyone.

But qualified would mean that you finished local events, not necessarily won any. Why is it worse? Or how is it comparable?

They are obviously not the same things, but the point I was trying to make is that the alleged "sin" of relegating the effort of a participant is far, far less then putting a barrier to prevent participation in the first place. In fact one is just a consequence of breaking the rules while the other says "we will determine if you are worthy of being in our event". The correlation I was trying to make (probably poorly as usual) was that the relegation was tied to such terms as gatekeeping/bias/etc. I am combining the two topics which may not be helpful. Sorry about that.

If my tone was right, something else would have been the problem. Anyways, it doesn't matter now.

You might be right, but it might have been more of a "timing" thing. Your intro came right after the drama and I interpreted it as yet another one of Lael's supporters coming out of the woodwork to attack the race and RD anyone else who agreed with the decision to relegate Lael's ride. It happened all over social media and other websites. It wasn't until a bit later in the conversation where your identity was clarified a bit and it was more obvious that you weren't just another person trying to tear down things without a bit of understanding and background of ultra bikepacking. You were an exception to the masses in my opinion, although again it felt like nobody had a problem with the 2019 update to the AZTR rules until it impacted Lael. Where was all the hateful energy towards the RD and supporters of the media rule when it was changed? Side thought: would the negative energy been as overwhelming had this happened to a male rider?

That's a very sad state of things then. I actually think (hope) it isn't true.

I think Scott may be underestimating the "preserving the event" desire of other participants. I totally am on board with preserving the AZTR and also respecting the AZT in general. Especially as I am an Arizona native.

I'd also introduce rules about scratching. If you scratch, you'll have to sit out 1-2 years.

I don't know if this does much, the trail is open at any time for anybody. I'd also note that "being ready" aka fit or whatever has much less to do with finishing than the mental game or weather impacts. Obviously a baseline of fitness is needed but I would say it is mental/weather/equipment failure factors that cause scratches - not fitness. The number of legit riders (Lael included) who have scratched on this route is a testament to "being qualified" as being a silly barrier to entry if it is to prevent scratching. This also seems to support allowing only "qualified" people from lining up for the race. That is worse than relegating a person's fast time. I think there is more than enough information out there about the challenges and extremes of this route and others like it. I mean, there are blogs and pictures and stats and don't forget - videos

One more side note: I did watch the video that was produced. I thought it was great - I did see much more interaction (speaking to the camera) than I would have anticipated given the "minimal interaction" that was discussed. I also saw some other things that would be considered "poor form" at least in my eyes especially in regards to usage of water caches. Not specifically against the rules, but the rules do state: The following are allowed, but not encouraged. Please use sparingly. (Excessive use can lead to relegation). In my opinion, Lael documented herself relying on them a bit more than I (a much slower rider btw) have been "trained" to or have been lead to believe is acceptable. One of the caches I saw was one of the more understanding ones (freeman), but the others not so much. One of them was even very close to an actual spigot near the Gila River - albeit the cache is located at a very nice place to camp with flat ground and a gazebo-ish shade structure and ample parking right next to it.

Does this mean that you are gonna head over here to the states to line up for one of these jscliacan? I sincerely hope you are able to so you are able to meet and ride with some pretty amazing people. You are clearly a strong rider and it's always a treat to watch those such as yourself tackle these routes to see how slow I really am haha.

I appreciate the discussion that has happened and I admittedly had to step out of it because I didn't feel like I was communicating well enough and I certainly don't have the extensive background or experience as other people who have been part of this discourse. Clarity in the language re: media crews is progress for sure. Thanks Scott for your work and attention to things as always.

Interesting thoughts on how to do a media thing, jsliacan, and I can't help but wonder if finding ways to skirt around it starts to breach upon the topic of trail/community impact. This is a topic we shouldn't ignore. The fact is, the AZT is getting much more popular. I think the primary explosion is on the thru-hiking side to be honest, but regardless of the source of additional traffic, it was a primary driver for moving the AZTR from the spring to the fall. In addition, there are rider caps in place in order to comply with forest service rules. In a grand depart scenario, the rider limit is 60 with the overall limit being 75 I believe (including shuttle drivers, other miscellaneous people being in the start location, etc) If media crews are there at the start, this potentially could cause issue with making the numbers work and actually make the number of riders allowed to participate in a GD be reduced.

I don't know what to think about drones. Would I want to hear one flying overhead? Not really. Do other trail users want to hear them? Probably not. A very real concern I have is malfunctioning drones potentially malfunctioning and causing fires. The desert southwest is a tinderbox and it is trending worse. Many miles of AZT have been impacted either directly or otherwise. No AZT miles that I know by drone users, but it has happened in other places. My stance is the less things out there to cause fires the better. This could considered unfair of course. What if a participant operated a drone out there? Would I care then? Yes, my concerns are the same. I personally wouldn't fly a drone out there knowing how easy it is to spark a fire here right now.

Just another thought about other trail users, specifically thru hikers and equestrians. It is no secret that many of them don't like bikes very much. My hunch is that this impression comes from day riders who have less regard for other trail users, but it is still an issue that the cycling community deals with. Do we need another reason for other trail users to not like us? They already get upset that we "go too fast" or "don't yield" or "drain the public water caches". Do we need to add to that by flying drones and having vehicles effectively chase the racers only to in effect descend like locusts into the locations the cars can get to just to disrupt that area for filming purposes? Some are large enough where it isn't an issue, others it could very well keep another real trail user from being able to park and access the AZT. That isn't good.

Your idea about filming in overly public places is probably valid, but unless filming people buying food at one of the limited locations that this falls into is rich and engaging enough is up for debate. With changes to the route, these locations have also decreased over the last few years. Several small towns south of Tucson and even Flagstaff proper are now out of the mix. Skipping Oracle is getting more common, etc.

Edit to add that the Kendrick fire burned very near if not on the AZT and was caused by a drone:
https://wildfiretoday.com/tag/drone-causes-fire/#:~:text=The%20drone%20that%20landed%2C%20caught,brush%2C%20or%20grass%20to%20burn.

I am attracted by the route of CTR or AZTR, but I am put off by the tight-knit communities around these races that seem to be quite radical.

I think you are right that the communities that participate in these events are tight-knit. That's just going to be the case when an event attracts those with similar mindsets in regards to the attraction of self supported ultra adventures. While there is a lot in common from that perspective, I mentioned in a previous post that it is my experience that the participants are very different and have myriad world views.

I think when you project a negative view onto the people who support the rules you are doing yourself a disservice. I tend to think that outside of the issue at hand (the media is support issue), we likely have more in common than you are giving everyone credit for. I think you should come check out one of the events you mention and find out for yourself - I think you would be pleasantly surprised with the people you encounter.

And this is the thing. They allow as little publicity as possible, basically making it a ride among mates and then you write something like this. The participant pool is extremely inbred...

You make it sound like it's a "good ol' boys club" which in my experience is very shortsighted if not downright wrong. The people lining up for these come from all walks of life and are as diverse as the terrain they wish to travel. And again, just for clarity, nothing in the rules states that Lael is prevented from doing her thing. It just says that the effort will be * and it can't count as a record for the AZTR. Both of these facts should be able to exist together. Does Lael's documentation and story become less valid and inspiring without the FKT? Will the people inspired by her suddenly quit bikes when somebody inevitably goes faster? Of course not.

jsliacan,

It appears you don't want a discussion at all, rather you want to pick apart point after point of people who appear to be on the side "against" media crews. Many of whom who have actually lined up to this event and others like it. Until there is a rising of support for this from within the participant pool, I wouldn't expect any traction on it. If you and others want that experience, go create the event you desire. Let the participants decide which event and set of rules they want to be under. Have all the E-bikes (not allowed on the AZT btw) and drones flying all over the place. Sounds great.

PS - Fly those drones nice and low on the north side of Redington Rd. Maybe you'll get some cool footage.

Hence the discussion to evolve the rules. I don't know how to make this any clearer, sorry.

I forgot, this is the era of "everyone gets a participation trophy". Evolving the rules until everyone is happy ensures that nobody is happy. I would venture a guess that the vast majority of people doing these events are attracted to the "do it yourself" ideology. Evolving the rules to move away from that is a disservice to those looking for that experience.

To get a non * time, document your effort yourself. I've seen beautiful photos, and engaging videos (look up Aaron Johnson's 2014 AZTR video) from participants. It can be done.

Agree to disagree on media (especially dedicated media following a specific rider) being support. Seeing a friendly face my partner's face along the length of the route would be a huge boost for me - thus my opinion.

I agree wholeheartedly that if media rules are applied differently in the same race (your example about TD 2019 - of which I don't know the details enough about to speak intelligently) then that is a major problem and not OK. That being said, I think the AZTR has been managed and "officiated" fairly since its inception. The fallout - primarily by people who have never participated in an event - against John has been disgusting and uncalled for.  This has split the community and created a bad taste more than anything else in this entire fiasco. Lael, et. al. have accepted the * and at the end of the day it doesn't impact their objectives in any way. They also didn't do anything to speak out about the behavior of their supporters. They got their content and web clicks. John got dragged by the masses and I will never be OK with that.

Hey jsliacan.

Have you ever participated in an ultra bikepacking race? I ask because from what I can tell, there are two different points of view and it seems like the line is primarily drawn at having/not having participated in one of these events. The rules are in place to create as level a playing field as possible for the participants. Those rules might not always be congruent with the wishes of those watching or rooting for participants. You might then ask why isn't there something in place to prevent doping then? Well, as has been shown in the pro sports/peloton, that is very hard to control even with an organizing body and lots of money. It's just not realistic. The presence of a media crew doesn't require testing somebodies blood or urine.

Ultimately when it comes to these events, integrity, honor and self-policing by the participants of that particular event should have the biggest vote in the room. If the participants don't like it or the application of the rules, there is nothing on this beautiful earth preventing them from creating their own event with rules that are more suitable for their style and objectives. It's not about gatekeeping or agendas. It is about preserving the integrity of the particular event.

Anyway, this is an amazing race, and I hope it continues to be that way.

I agree one hundred percent. It's in pretty good hands imo.

Hey Sarah,

I remember reading (I think in John's race report that year) about you having to hoof it with that broken crank. Crazy!

I can only speak for myself, but count me IN the group that think Lael does amazing things out there and there are a lot of people that she is able to reach and impact in a positive way. I don't think most people are trying to negate that. We need more people like Lael doing good things for those less fortunate!

I don't know enough about Lael's media crew to speak intelligently about it, so I won't other than it wasn't just Rue and there is some backing there given The Radavist...

I don't disagree with pay discrepancies and surely they exist. No argument there. That said, does Lael really need to set FKT's to keep her sponsorships? It seems to me like her stories and content do that pretty well just on their own. However, if FKT's really are necessary to keep her financially going, that sure seems like a slippery slope. In that regard, you would think she would want to hold herself to the highest of standards to avoid this kind of controversy. She herself said on the bikes or death podcast stated that she didn't know about the rule and the she didn't really care.

In any case, I think I stated it in a previous post, but I think that both things are possible:
1. Lael had a smoking fast ride on the current AZTR route and hopefully got some amazing footage of which I can't wait to see.
2. She had a media crew - Rue and at least one other with backing from The Radavist. They followed and met up along the entire length of the route. Regardless of how professional both parties are in that scenario, rule 2 of the AZTR states that it is considered support and * will be given.

Just for clarity, I was super bummed when I heard about the * - but I understood why it was applied. I was rooting for her the whole time, just as I do the other blazing fast women out there (Chase, Kait, Alexandera, etc). The gap between men and women is basically nothing now which I think is amazing.

Sadly, due to the fallout and the nastiness that ensued towards John and those supporting strict adherence to the rules it has actually turned me off a bit towards Lael, the radavist and others.

It didn't have to be this way...

Unless it HAD to be this way... For the money.

[R]

Are there not two separate things, AZTR800 FKT (which has lots of rules, two of which Lael broke), and then also AZT800 FKT (see there is no "R"), which has no/few official rules but does follow the AZTR course? She broke the rules and doesn't get the AZTR FKT, but seems that she definitely set the course record.

I wouldn't say that AZTR has a lot of rules - they are relatively sparse actually.

Historically, there hasn't been separate tracking between the two. The only FKT's for bikepacking the route that are "published" are those found on the AZTR web resources. That said, Lael on her own instagram account when announcing she was going for an 800 ITT,  specifically mentioned the two current AZTR self supported records (male/female) of Nate and Chase, respectively.

The level of ambiguity of the communication both before and after is... well you can draw your own conclusion.

I think Lael should continue to do what she does, she is amazing. I think a little more thought and pre-emptive/clear communication on their objectives would be appreciated by everyone. Think of how much different this whole situation would be if AT THE BEGINNING, Lael, et al announced the following:

"Lael is attempting an 800 ITT of the AZTR route. We really want to bring this attempt to our fans through photos, video and words as it is an amazing route in a beautiful place. We know that by having a media team in place to accomplish this, we are violating one of the few rules of the AZTR which states that media crew is considered support and that the time will be designated with a * and won't be able to qualify as a record time if we are fortunate enough to do that. We respect this and the current record holders. We expect our fans respect these rules as well. still can't wait to see how fast Lael can finish the route and we hope that our fans are excited too!"

As much as people like to bring the whole "have it out for Lael/women" thing into it, I don't know how valid that really is. In fact, I believe it is very possible to both think that Lael had amazing and fast ride out there and also broke the "no media" rule. I have no info on any other support being offered, but the no media thing is clear.

So in this version of reality, based on these facts:
1. Lael executed a brilliant AZT ride following the established AZTR route at a blazing fast pace (can't dispute this)
2. Lael broke the "no media" rule (also can't dispute this)

This would mean that in the context of the known self-supported guidelines she is DQ'd from having the FKT for a self supported AZTR run. I'm bummed about it to be honest because I was rooting for Lael the whole time.  I hope to watch her crush events in the future. Guess I'm a hater, so come at me I suppose.

Just wish the "everyone hates Lael" energy/crowd came up BEFORE she did something amazing (yet controversial based on the two facts above)