On the package of the warmers it says not to use them agains bare skin and not to leave them on overnight. Heed those warnings! I didn't once anmd got a nice burn!

For down sleeping socks check out https://goosefeetgear.com/, they are the lightest ones I know of and very comfy as well as reasonably priced.

I'll bet the UST model offers better sidewall protection from cuts. Maybe a UST with very thin tube and stans or slime would be a good compromise?

UST does not offer  more sidewall protection, as it is an extra lining on the inside of the casing. It might add puncture protection and allow sealant to work better, as there is a thicker layer of material for the sealant to adhere to.

Schwalbe offers snakeskin sidewall protection on their tires, Kenda has something too. For a super tough tire, Specialized has the Grid UST, with UST lining and exterior protection. If its just thorns you are concerned about Specialized has Armadillo Elite, which offer really good puncture protection and is tubeless ready.

I have run Mavic UST rims in the past. The last few years I have run Stan's and Specialized/Roval tubeless rims. Mostly with Specialized tires and Stan's, also a Bontrager and several Schwalbe tires.
Yes, the Stan's has to be replaced regularly, also make sure to pour with the bottle upside down, so you get the fibers, not just the liquid.
WTB and Geax UST tires do not fit(or very tight) on Stan's rims. Specialized and Schwalbe tires have ranged from loose to crazy tight for me, but all sealed well.
I carry a spare tube or two, Park pre-glued patch kit and. Mini pump with a hose and gauge (Lezyne alloy M with replacement gauge hose).

I'd say the opposite. If you weigh 100 lbs, with a 25 lbs bike, 25 lbs of packing gear is an extra 20% of work required to climb.
If you weigh 270 lbs, with a 30 lbs bike, 25lbs of gear only adds 8%!

So the heavier you are(with the same overnight gear) the smaller the difference in effort between a day trip and an overnight.

Therefore I stick with sleep as the only significant variable between your day and overnight trips.

Have fun!

[Your]

Your weight can not be issue, since it is the same for both day trips and bikepacking.

Perhaps I misread your original question. I thought you said you had no problem doing a certain ride as a day ride, then riding again the next day, yet when you did it as an overnight, you were beat on the second day. Is that correct?

Could you please rephrase your original question?

Edited to insert the word 'train' to make it easier to search for this as well as easier to understand for people who don't know that 'Amtrak' is the American passenger train company.

[predominantly]

I meant: "must sleep outside predominantly".

Through-hikers and -bikers will occasionally take a hotel night or something, but that is in between stretches of hiking and camping. That is not the same as someone intending to sleep inside most of the time, but carrying a shelter for an unplanned night out.

The name seems a bit of a misnomer, in that bikepacking is more akin to hiking (minimal changes of clothes, carry only the bare necessity), whereas normal bike touring is more like backpacking (spending time in cities, carrying souvenirs, books, and other luxuries).

That might be a difference between Aussie english and US English. In the US, hiking is the means of travel of a backpacker. Am I correct in assuming when you talk about backpacking you mean (mostly) young people traveling around a foreign country by hitchhiking or public transport, staying in hostels and campgrounds and carrying their belongings in a backpack?
In the US backpacking means walking in undeveloped areas, while carrying your shelter on your back.

I think those old books used the term 'bikepacking' to imply carrying overnight gear, rather than staying in buildings at night during a 'biketour'.

In my mind, it means backpacking with a bike.
So I think of the same things as you would for a backpacker:

• Must sleep outside. You don't expect someone who says they went backpacking to have stayed in hotels either
• Mostly offroad. Look at backpacker magazine and just about every book out there. Doesn't feature a lot of road walking does it?

Speed is not a part of it. Racing is something separate. Again, when your hear someone's gone backpacking, do you imagine they ran most of the way and slept only 5 hours a night?
Minimalism and seatbags vs panniers doesn't matter. Those are means to an end, namely the two points stated above. It is hard to ride true mtb trails with overnight gear if you are carrying 65 lbs, so most bikepackers pack fairly light, but that's not the defining point, it is a result of the goal.
Gear should never be part of the definition, other than a bike vs walking or paddling. Imagine if we defined hiking by footwear:
We still call someone a backpacker whether he wears trailrunners or mountaineering boots, as long as he is hiking, not running or climbing, he is a backpacker.

That being said, that doesn't imply that other types of trip are no good, just that this is what I think of when I hear "bikepacking".

Yeah, if the day rides were in cooler temps that might have made the difference too. Other than that, my money would be on the sleep issue.

A separate FAQ/FDT (frequently discussed topics) with stickies of frequently covered topics would be a nice idea. That way the stickies don't cover up the entire page when you open the forumpage, blocking out all current threads.

+1 for flats.
For one thing you don't have to go out and buy some $300+ winter biking boots.
Second, ice and snow is slippery unpredictable stuff, I like to be able to dab quickly when a wheel decides to head out from under me.
Third, foot out drifting corners are super fun in the snow! It's the one time of year you can skid to your hearts content without damaging the trails!

Although I agree it would be ince to be able to sort through sub-topics to find something, I don't think we should do it.

1: Many threads cover several topics at once, where do you put it.
2: Right now we have 2 sub forums bikepacking and Q&A, and I see Q&A's get posted in the bikepacking forum all the time. I think if people can't get that right, splitting into sub-topics will be a losing battle.


Stickies yes.

I find a big difference between mtb and road riding. I live in Minnesota so our mtb rides are all in dense woods and we don't have long descents to cool you off.

Road: little protection from wind and riding creates wind.
MTB in the woods, so very little wind and speeds are so low that there is very little riding wind created.

Consequently on the road, I need to wear warmer clothes and especially more windproof clothing, making sure it has a non windproof back panel or so for venting. This is easy enough, the challenge comes in keeping my nose and cheeks warm, since they are hard to cover, without covering up you mouth, leading to fogging. Around 5f/-15C it starts to become hard to do this.

On the mtb the lowest temps I have ridden in are around -4F/-20C and that was fine.

I would feel differently if I was out west riding an exposed descent for 45 minutes straight!

As mentioned before, just dress smart. Make sure your clothes can breathe and vent moisture, drop some disposable toe warmers in your boots and wear winter boots/shoes on flats and indeed, don't stop, make sure you keep moving as much as possible.

I also plan to have an extra top and mittens on when I start riding and plan to take them off after about 10 minutes or so. If you are comfy when you start riding, you are dressed to warm for the rest of the ride. In mild weather(>~20F), I just plan on be a bit chilly the first 10 minutes untill I warm up.  This doesn't work well in really cold temps though, as my hands and feet get shut-off from bloodflow so they never warm up. Hence the warm-up layer I'll wear for the start of a really cold ride or ski.

ABhemet:

Do I understand you correctly that you are saying you can do a certain ride as two day rides in a row, but when you bikepack the same kind of route you are totally spent the second day?
If so, I can only think of two variables that differ between a day ride and an overnight:

1: The extra weight
2: The sleep on the in between night. That would be my guess to be your issue.

1: Obviously any extra weight is going to make harder work going uphill, but even on flat and downhills it can make it harder because of the extra effort to handle your bike, or because you're taking slower lines and braking more due to lack of confidence in the handling of the loaded bike.

2: I often sleep worse when camping, and I find that if I am short on sleep, I have absolutely zero energy the next day, even though I might not feel sleepy because of the excitement of being outside.

What to do?
1: Reduce weight. Backpackinglight.com and Ultimate Hiker book by Andrew Skurka are your best bets to figure out how to drop weight.
2: Sleep longer. On my recent trip I went to bed at 8:30 pm and got up at 7am( there was only 11 hrs of daylight) . That way, even if you wake up a bit at night, you still get a reasonable  amount of sleep.
2: Use a different sleep set-up. Comfier sleeping pad, better pillow, earplugs, sleepmask, etc, whatever it takes. And no alcohol, although it makes you sleepy, you sleep less soundly.

The other option would be to deal with it, like CCBs suggestions. You could make sure you are going easy all the time. Use your granny gear for every climb, even if you could ride it faster. Walk instead of grinding it out at max power in the granny. It will use different muscles and keep you from going anaerobic on these steeper climbs. Plan shorter distances for each day of a bikepack than you would for a single day ride.

Stumpy:

I will put the stuff about railroad travel in that topic, as it makes it easier for people to find it on purpose. the camp/water stuff will go on the Route page.
Yes, I Used a Revelate Tangle bag S. note my frame is an XL 29er. I will put up a set-up page when I have time. I want a custom frame bag though.

http://www.bikepacking.net/routes/maah-daah-hey-trail/

http://www.bikepacking.net/forum/index.php/topic,4862.0.html

I have read several accounts of people using bear spray.

[Doubling up on bags or wearing clothes inside only works if there is enough room for the down to loft a bit. If, so, two bags are just as warm as one bag with the same fill, just heavier.]

Stumpy and others:

+1 on the warm clothes.

• You will need them in camp anyway
• If you are carrying it, why not use it at night, else it's dead weight
• It gives you the flexibility to adpat to varying temps on your trip
• Can you say 'night time pee break?

Even in Minnesota I rarely wear high loft (down, synthetic fill) pants while active. It would have to be very cold and windy at the same time. This depends on how hard you are working too. If you are taking it easy, or not in great shape like me, you will wear them more often than someone in peak shape pushing hard.

For short trips down is usually ok. It is on longer trips that you start accumulating moisture in your insulation from perspiration that problems arise.

I typically use a ~15F bag, combined with powerstretch top and bottom and thick insulated pants and parka and down slippers inside a breathable bivy sack and with thick pads.

Did you say your pad was 1.75" thick? That's probably ok. If it's thinner a good, cheap, addition is a large (25" wide) thin closed cell foam pad. This will add insulation and keep you from touching the ground next to your pad with a knee or hand.

Doubling up on bags or wearing clothes inside only works if there is enough room for the down to loft a bit. If, so, two bags are just as warm as one bag with the same fill, just  heavier.

I also wear my ski helmet for winter biking. If it's very windy a well vented full face(DH) helmet is great too, as it provides windp[rotection for the face without breathing and fogging issues.

Be sure to post a 'personal set-ups' about it when it does arrive!

[only take your bike if you board at a train station with checked baggage service]

Here is some info on bikes on Amtrak trains.
Since several bikepacking routes offer Amtrak railroad access, it can be a great way to travel to or from your trail.

If you haven’t been on Amtrak trains out west:
Coach seats on the train are similar in size to business class on an airplane, and include thigh and foot rests as well as drinking water fountains in the cars.
If you upgrade to a sleeper you get meals included and free coffee and juice in your car as well as a shower in your car. There is usually a bar car serving drinks and snacks as well as a sit down dining car.

If you reside outside the US there may be some interesting railpasses available if you want to do some longer train trips in a short time. You can buy a ticket and interrupt a train journey anywhere along the route then get back on and continue.

Trains are frequently delayed. On a recent yourney we had a medical emergency that forced a stop, but more common is having to wait for freight trains.

Be aware that you can only take your bike if you board at a train station with checked baggage service.

We left our bikeboxes and duffelbags with street clothes in the station while we did our ride, there might be a fee for that, but we got lucky and didn't have to pay anything.

Amtrak will NOT take the bike wedge shaped Aircaddy box. however they have their own boxes which they give you for free if they are used, else they are $20. Bike fee is $10 per bike and max weight for the total is 50 lbs. Their boxes are huge. All I had to do was take off pedals and front wheel, and loosen my stem faceplate. I have a huge bike(I am 6’5″ and sit upright).  At one station they gave us tape, at another they did not. I suggest bringing your own.

Bikebox handling was clumsy leading to a dropped box, so some padding (we used our handle bar bags) might be good.

Dirtrag had a good article on bikes on trains a while back:
http://www.dirtragmag.com/webrag/dirt-rag-rides-rails

Amtrak bike policy:
http://www.amtrak.com/servlet/ContentServer?c=Page&pagename=am%2FLayout&cid=1251621565020