The "CSM" is a marvelous thing. I'd love to do it someday. But our epics involve more technical terrain and more trail-breaking. (We use a group of about 6 skiers to keep a good pace going, taking turns breaking trail.) Our packs couldn't be as awkward as theirs. But they ARE really close to what we're up to. ...But they're LOTS more supported.

Iditaski is a lot more like Arrowhead 135: goes thru valleys on wide snowmobile trails, not technical stuff. I think these guys mostly use sleds.

Really, we're just skiing Singletrack.

Those other scenes are kinda like bike touring fully loaded with racks and panniers. We're trying to find the bikepacking version for skiing! The light'n'nimble'n'fast way to go. I suppose we might have to spend a lot of $. To stay lightweight in winter you usually gotta spend. But who knows!

Maybe a Singletrack Sled concept is out there...

OK, maybe it won't be so tough. We could just use the Tour Divide approach of just eating the same all day and skiing into the night and bivvying then just getting cold and getting moving again in the wee-hours of morning. Movement means warmth.

I suppose it's not breaking "rules" to find a house and get water that way. I'd just love to solve the total puzzle for Self Supported. The daily gallon of water can be tricky to manage in winter for a fast moving team. I'd hate to stop and pump-filter very much. Spose we could, tho.

There's no forum for discussing modern XC Ski camping and "go far and fast" XC trail skiing.

Maybe we can share the space here! (Our local MMBA.org mtbike forum has a Winter Sports sub-forum.)

We might be a natural combination. (I note that the Backpackinglight crew having "winter hiking" but no real ski content.)

There's a group of us mtbikers here in Michigan who like to ski "big days" on singletrack trail. "Real" nordic skiers seem to want to have nothing to do with the idea. They're addicted to grooming.

We use the ideas of lightweight bikepacking in our epic XC Skiing. We're running about 10-15 lb packs to ski all day, up to 35 miles so far of trail-breaking on singletrack.

Like any sane person, once it snows we ski. Skis love snow. We love skis. Bikes hate snow -- unless it's ultra-hardpack -- and it's rarely hardpack on our trails in winter.

But apparently we're freaks because once the snow flies we want to keep enjoying the same singletrack trails that we enjoy in the summer.

I *will* grant the bikers and fatbikers the Mixed Seasons and Low Snow Conditions -- which are growing, apparently. If a trail is half snow and half dirt then skiing isn't the answer. ...But IF there's a firm half-inch base and you can hop over all dirt then you really should be on skis.

A *ton* of bikers DO ski. The worlds should be happy to co-exist. The reality is there already.

When we have good snow and it's cold -- a Blue Wax day -- there's nothing better than skiing! ...On the same trails that you bike!

What we do isn't A/T telemark ski-mountaineering. There *is* a bit of forum action for true "BC" stuff, with the big heavy boots and superwide skis. We use a lot of high-level ski handling skills, but really we're just skiing and adventuring on the very common hiking trails around here. We use midlength skis and common modern touring boots with a low modest cuff and NNN-BC bindings at most. ...Light, fast, far is our scene.

And we're trying to figure out how to best make the leap from "big days" to overnights. I personally hugely dislike skiing even with a 20-lb pack. It becomes slogging. Weight is even worse when skiing than it is when biking coz it's on your body. Or you can use a sled -- but are sleds tolerable for singletrack? ...It's a good question. Maybe a singletrack sled could be developed. People with a bikepacking mindset, and those who are into Epic Rides and multiday rides, might be the ones to best develop Singletrack Skiing and multiday XC skiing.

Whattaya think?

What's the story with the website? Any website? Why does this event not have a website/homebase for years now? Or a bunch of websites? (Often there are both official and unofficial sites for events.)

I like pointing people to the latest on "the story." For the past couple years I've been stuck.

I'm on the bare periphery and have no time, but even so I'm almost inspired to set something up that acts as a "roundup" resource of current info. I'm really surprised that no one out of the hundreds who are actually crazy about the event has done something like that.

Like, I notice a guy asking folks to post their rigs in the Personal Rides section (we had that info on the site one year). A site could easily have a Forum where people could post what they know to a section on Rigs, even if the rider doesn't have time.

So what's the reason for no official TD website? Why is the URL / domain / name dead? I forget if I ever knew...

Also, I wonder why the site is still listed as the official contact on Wiki when it hasn't been active in 2 years now...

Aid stations make me cringe. And sag wagons. Overhead...

But I guess there's a place for everything.

If they were a real team in an event that allowed it then it wouldn't be cheating. It sounds like it's vexing but it seems like there are many events out there that have both team and solo divisions and hopefully everybody gets along well enough.

A well-prepared person who breaks a bad bone, starts spouting blood, or gets knocked out, or animal attack, or bad sick miles from nowhere could possibly use the benefit of a buddy. ...But I'm happy to let the organizers or whoever shows up for such events decide.

Well, being prepared doesn't always matter. Emergencies can still happen. Which is why the buddy-system has some fans. Jeff of Carousel seemed serious about the benefits when he and I talked -- and he seems like a good source.

Yeah, teams have issues -- you raise many good points -- but teams are still interesting. Maybe run em totally separately. It's all a test. I suppose it's up to the players and organizers in the end.

Neat thoughts, thanks. Yeah, it becomes like scrambles golf except the worst ball is scored. Kinda funny! Well, it's safer, but yeah synching with someone for a big duration would likely be tricky! Interesting!

I think the Divide is unique and should stay that way. If someone wants to have a self supported race that mirrors everything else out there, they should find a route and start one.

Route? It's a national hiking/biking route, isn't it? It's by no means a "race property" route. So that wouldn't be the snag. So, for sure the Divide is unique and will stay that way. The TdF is unique. But other events run on French roads from time to time. Uniqueness isn't kept by prevention of other things.

I like riding with people.  But I also really like riding - and racing - alone.  That's part of the draw for me.

Whatever works for whoever goes out there! : )

I meant to also say that this new Team mode could just be set up via a blog and SPOTS. It would be just as voluntary and unofficial as anything else. Just a format that people could go for if they liked. And where their resulting times could be posted.

But, as I say, the pro's, con's and rules/parameters are beyond me. I'm just wondering what people think. It would reflect in no way on solo TD. It would just be for those who wanted it.

As I say, I could see it working better for some folks and, offhand, seems definitely safer. I see it as being equally hard in its own way. How to get along with others while going hard for weeks? Maybe it would be best to ride solo or keep "sociability gaps" on days when it's conducive for that -- then cooperate for camping/feeding/repairs and for headwinds or pavement or spells where misery might prefer company. Who knows!

I personally think that the "buddy system" (and more) is a wonderful idea to explore.

Any threads about it here lately or FAQs?

What about a TEAM Divide?

Pros, cons?

I suppose the con is EROSION. This might be solved by having teams be NoBo, to end up in the muddy areas after they've had more time to dry.

The pros, that I can see, are that it would be faster, funner, lighter, and far SAFER.

Traveling long and hard and in the wee hours and in the wilderness seems like it's only a matter of time for more tragedy. Maybe that's just life. Maybe a buddy could likely and easily spell the total difference in many big risk situations. If only to have someone likely more able to fetch help. Even riding on roads seems far safer with multiple riders.

I'm not thinking bunched-field racing but more along the lines of team time trials.

The details? The rules? The limits? Ha, that's for bigger brains than mine. I'd say to keep it all still Self-Supported. Use what ya bring. No vehicles or outsiders. Score the time based on the last rider, maybe. Do all team-members have to finish? Beats me! Use an average? Who knows! It's grist for the mill, food for thought.

What about a TEAM self-supported RAAM? I still like Chris Kostman's Trans-Am idea. He canceled it due to safety. What if it used the Buddy System? I think that brings in HEAPS more common sense and safety. A bigger on-road presence, too. Less likely that two will fall prey to bad judgment, overdoing it, delirium, whatever.

How's the offroad RAAM route-finding going? That's another option for greater beauty and safety. But I'd still like to see a TEAM option available.

In what way can self-sup racing offer the best experience and make the biggest impact in the USA? I already tend to think of it as better than TdF-type caravan/commissaire racing. I have a hunch there's a big impact, quintessentially American event here. Of course we also want it to be low impact. I like the accessibility and sustainability of self-sup action. It seems like it can apply to a TEAM mode.

Heck...it could maybe even work with STAGES. How 'bout that kettle of fish? : )

Have to say I have become addicted to the tracking and the forums.  

Someone posted a little bit of a rant about not having better coverage a couple days ago.  I guess someone is suppose to digest and post this for everyone else for free!?!?    

It does seem to have impacted my work lately. Ugh! But what can ya do? There's more important things!

And, hey, for a couple/few years there, Paul Howard did do regular semi-daily news summarizing at the TD site. Top notch reporting, it was. And I even pitched in some a couple years ago. I tell ya, it was a LOT of work! It doesn't seem like so much, and it's so fun, but it adds up pronto.

It's the best show in town and it's still going' down!  

I'm personally diggin' Cjell's carefree noggin -- ears tuned to the music of the spheres (and for vehicles) without turbulence. ...Perfect breeze.

Do some not wear/bring a helmet? I haven't noticed one on Cjell's rig...

http://mtbcast.com/site2/2012/06/25/mtbcast-td12-%E2%80%93-ollie-whalley-recaps-his-finish-from-silver-city/
his wife what?

[...]

I think he said his LIGHTS gave out on him so he had to camp the last night rather than break 16 days...

I'm on tenterhooks regarding Craig. ...

But maybe we have a bit of a lull here. So I have a couple questions... Someone recently mentioned SPOTS and security in a rather grave fashion. Have they ever really been an issue? Has a racer ever been harmed in some way due to SPOT info? My impression of bad people is that they are stupid ... opportunists, usually drunk, not web-savvy or educated as to what an event like this might actually in fact be. As if someone could be aware of the event (or any event) and then decide to harm a racer. That's not my imagination/experience as to how crime/harm works. Has it happened? I declare that I doubt it. But let's see...

I've had security concerns myself when traveling/biking solo. Do most folks in this event basically just carry bear-spray?

How are the locals? My impression is that cellphones and electric dog fences have greatly improved biking safety, but drunkenness and ragers still have to be out there. I mostly bike near habitation. Who knows, maybe Economic Hard Times increases stress... Are there areas that are worse for it, like does it get worse in more blighted areas? (I've heard that poor people are actually nicer to travelers but maybe that's more of a global thing and not referencing poor Americans who might be problematic. ?)

Well, good luck to rookie Tyson! Amazing how some people catch the bug then JUMP.

Hey, I got my Cordillera 3 just, like, 2 days after ordering! Can't wait to dig in...

JP was superlucky last year for his whole year! What a year! He did all those amazing events, setting records all along. The coolest year's achievement I've ever encountered. Certainly for bikes but maybe for anything.

I'd think that encountering others along the trail would be a boost no matter how it was configured. Like, if C&O yo-yo'ed several times a day, getting half hour gaps in the meantime, then reeling back in for whatever reason -- different styles, pacing, etc. -- then even camping miles apart -- even if that happened they'd be getting a boost in all likelihood -- chasing, chatting as they passed each other, saying Hi, trying to parse each other's scene. In fact, a very loose contact pattern might be the most pleasant, low-stress and ... effective for synergy. Being around each other a lot each day may well become vexing.

The connections and influences we have on each other can be strong even when sporadic.

PS: Veggie has to be tough, but, whew, think of VEGAN. Have TD racers other than Deanna Adams tried that? (Her blog had a report a couple years ago about a So. Am. tour she did with a pal who tried to do it all RAW vegan. ...Mowing roadside fruit all day, whole melons, getting prisoner skinny. Deanna was feeling bad for him. He also had constant gut-bugs. I think she calls herself a "junk food vegan" or such.)

My in-laws picked me up from Antelope Wells. They were waiting when I arrived at about 5pm and had a chilly bin out with some fresh lettuce, tomatoes and fruit in it. I immediately scoffed the lot. Only found out much later that it was their dinner that they were about to have for themselves.

Ha... They thought you would've already had a nice dinner, or maybe wouldn't've been hungry.

Anyone on these big pushes get appetite suppression?

When I do all-day for multi-day I seem to maybe get some appetite suppression and even water suppression. I don't really get hit by the "Ooh, looks so good! Tastes so good!" ravenous thing. Gotta intentionally eat/drink enough. And my portions don't naturally get a lot bigger. I like winter events and find that deluxe pizza is the only thing that works. I bonk on anything lighter. Goos, potions, bars: no good. But half a slice an hour and I'm rockin' all day. I do recall some really good peaches on a summer tour. Mmmm. Yet I could only have 6 or so before I had enough for that year.

Maybe the monster junk food wolf would kick in after a week or more of extra hard going...?

I don't know how accurate race flow is on trackleaders but it's interesting to look at Ollie and Craig's lines.  Ollie's line is smoother whereas Craig's has more variability and has been getting more so as the race goes on.  Ollie's lines have remained smooth.  Possibly from his gearing??  Maybe just better at pacing over long distances?  I don't know but an interesting perspective.

OK, I think I just found these lines. They're the Speed & Speed/Time Plots at the bottom of each Rider's page, right? Yeah, quite different for those 2 guys! If you toggle windows b/w the two it's easy to see. Hard to imagine they've been riding together. Craig's is hugely more ragged and tends to look taller but I suppose the lows are also lower. Are they yo-yo'ing? That's how I'd read it.

What is riding a Rohloff like? I think I tried one a few years ago, along with a bunch of other hub-gears, for a couple days, and they ALL seemed to be noticeably inefficient except for their one direct-drive gear. I was shockingly underwhelmed. I'd been hearing how good the new hub-gears were. Like, I wouldn't want to try to ride hard on a hub-gear due to resenting the work-loss -- felt like 1-2mph at 20mph. But I was mostly using one (forget the name) and maybe didn't give the Rohloff enough of a try. The R also seems heavy-ish (rear-heavy, anyway). ...I see that a R system weighs 1800 gr vs 1600 for derailer sys, but that's with a chain on both. Apparently belts are lighter than chains.