So are you saying only the top finishers should play by the rules?

Mark - as she wrote she is aiming for 32 days, she is already not racing the TD (over 31 days is orange dotted). Probably she should have been put in the touring category from the outset. In terms of "visitation", if she doesn't know the people and is not drafting, hard to call that visitation.

More interesting to me is when someone on bikepacking.net will call out the top 15 rider who missed a section. Rather disappointing that only a 57 year old lady who is following the route to the meter and took 12 days to get to Helena is being noted as a "relegation" (clearly she is from the outset) when no-one comments on the guy at the sharp end who missed a section.

BTW: Greg Gleason missed the Gold Dust Trail ... descended ... spotted it ... re-climbed ... descended Gold Dust Trail ... lost about 50mins plus energy. That's TD racing as it should be.

 Why show up in Banff on the second Friday in June if your intent is to do your own thing? That's where a lot of confusion falls these days. People want to "ride the Tour Divide." Others among us, even though we can never be the fittest or the fastest, want to "race" the GDMBR to the best of our abilities with the camaraderie  and commiseration of like-minded folks.

Jill - there are a some who declared at the outset that they are NOT RACING to AW from the outset - Gary Braun, Bill Littmann, Chantal Hindrup, Mckayla Holloway, Chris Hubick, Sharan Gurkar, Grace Ragland and Shem Simmons.

All of those "Alternators" know 100% that they will be relegated. (Other than one odd Spot turned off/on). The TD these days ONLY relegates people for route violations and no-one seems to self relegate for other rules breaches - people even write themselves about rules violations ... but even pre-2010 that was happening (e.g. people drafting). [Toby Gadd was great at keeping this point alive.]. If this is a change then perhaps you can make the call to call people out - you've surely read the same blogs / books / articles and know exactly what I am talking about ... but we've both chosen to stay silent on it. However by staying silent perhaps we are not helping to maintain the "gentleman's agreement" ethos underlying the premise of self-supported ultra racing. Toby was stellar at keeping that alive but was basically driven out of writing here years ago by the tone of the discussion on bikepacking.net.

I personally know RS (who is biking with WS) and they absolutely trained to race - but as Mike Tyson said: "Everyone has a plan until you're punched in the face". In their case they adapted and decided not to turn off the Spot and go home, but to adapt and try to continue as best they can. I think we can all agree that that is the true TD and bikepacking ethos - have a plan, try to execute it, and if it goes to hell then come up with a new plan.

This discussion in various guises has been rumbling on for years on bikepacking.net, with past comments even on how anyone over XXX days should be removed (yes, removed!) from the Trackleaders page. But I don't recall when anyone here (including me) has been brave enough here to post when a front runner or friend breaks the rules.  

Dave

I feel a little discouraged by all of the route deviations this year. It appears the growing abundance of fractured information out there has also diluted understanding of what the Tour Divide even is. Ah well. Still fun to dot-watch.

Food for thought:

In 2009, 38% finished. In 2017, 39% finished. "All those deviations", which are effectively scratches, is probably similar pro-rata to 2009 when only 42 started.

In 2010 of the 48 on the start list, 9 had scratched by Whitefish - 20%. And the route was easier to Whitefish in 2010 than it is now.

In 2004 (Rooseville - AW) one of the sponsored racers stopped in Breck to party (!) and finished in 30 days. Sponsored. Border to border.

Can anyone on route grab some shots of Dom Irvine for us dot watchers, please?

Images of Dom are here:

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10156408997778670&set=pcb.622809261386508&type=3&theater&ifg=1
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10156408997743670&set=pcb.622809261386508&type=3&theater&ifg=1
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10156408997808670&set=pcb.622809261386508&type=3&theater&ifg=1


Interesting to go all dark colours in the heat and to rock a mid sized Osprey.

Hey bikelite - where are these updates being posted? I'm not seeing them on either of their facebook or instagrams, so clearly I'm looking in the wrong places. Thanks for sharing!

Ron - those updates are being posted here: https://www.facebook.com/groups/tourdivide/

what is the Tour DeVide record now for over 60 years old?

Robert Orr, 2015, 18:08:00

who will be the 60+ challengers for 2018?



is there an over 60 single speed finisher?


who is the oldest finisher?

Rich Ashton, 2017, 30:07:07

Which prepared foods do people find carry well and last at least a day without getting nasty? I've carried xtra cheeseburgers from McD's, fried chicken, fries, and sandwiches...

I found that it took a few days for my body (GI) to be able to adapt and didn't feel hungry (or eat much) until Eureka. Apparently this is not unusual - the body is in competition for using blood supply to ride and to digest food. I struggled to eat the entire race, but on repeat I would: 1. Focus more on proteins than carbs. Carbs are plentiful on the TD. 2. Drink more - I often had a dry mouth and struggled to eat bars etc. tortilla+peanut butter was tough to eat on the Mesa. 3. Send some powdered food (Perpetum etc) to some PO's at resupply points just in case and take some at the start (I had 3, used 2 on the first days and carried one to AW). 4. Burgers etc - get them halved and wrapped to eat over some hours. 5. Good advice above on the mayo - I didn't do that and had to dump the food. 6. Gatorade is everywhere and is your friend.

Main thing is I would try to put on 3%-4% body-weight over the last few weeks.

Most service stations have energy bars but the further down the race order you are the more limited the supply. Fig Newtons are great as they are moist too. Cheese sticks and jerky for protein. Choc milk most stops too. Fresh juice was available most places too so that was a good way to get in some nutrients.
 

The ZPaks probably hold up better...

I used the Zpacks - had a small hole on the right palm by the end but likely due to having a Rohloff. They were functionally great, only problem was they are quite snug fitting over my warm gloves and couldn't put them on / off whilst riding. They were on/off probably a few times every day. Replaced them now with a bigger pair from goretex, 20g heavier but easier to use.

It feels like the pioneering spirit of TD has perhaps been replaced by a 'bucket list' type mentality. There are obviously still many risks associated with tackling this route and many adventures to be had, but so much has already been figured out by the early riders; where to get good water (I found a google map for water sources on the Wamsutter detour that someone posted), where to shop, which bike shops to hit, where to ship food/gear,   

Woodland - So many details like above are contained in Mike McCoy's guide book for the Great Divide published in 2000 (4 years before the first GD from Rooseville). The ACA Maps are very detailed and were released in 1998 and have full data, including tel numbers, of all relevant services. The Moe Brothers were the pioneers of the GDMBR riding a Continental Divide route in 1984 and the ACA followed with their map and Mike McCoy's book. Since then we've all just been following in the tread marks of giants.

Ovando had 300 campers in 2009, TD had 16 finishers - so at most 5% riders on GDMBR are TD racers (assuming all riders on GDMBR camped at Ovando, so likely less than 5%).

After the legendary John Stamstad raced it in 1999 people have been up for the challenge. Yes, it is a bucket list race since 1999, but not of the drag-me-up-Everest-cocktail-party-conversation type of person, but for a self supported ultra racing bikepacker type.

Other than the first 1-2 days you are alone out there even with 160 starters, and even day 1 & 2 you're mostly alone with no-one in sight. If you're riding the same pace as someone you won't catch them, and anyone who catches you (or who you catch) after day 2 has a relatively short chat and moves on at their pace. Or just ITT it, or go NOBO, or a NOBO ITT.

Outside of the perpetual obsessing about gear and what to bring/not to bring, I think my biggest concern is cold weather. Like frigid, hypothermia cold. Wet, can't stop shivering cold. Does it get that bad? I'm afraid of packing that fear and being waaaayyyy too heavy with uneccessary items. I know it's all relative to what is too cold for someone and what isn't, but what are temps like at the coldest?

I rode '16 and it was seriously wet and cold the first week for the mid-pack. (Front guys were fast enough to get ahead of the weather mostly). Many racers were passing me from Lima onwards who had had to take a motel/hotel during daylight hours (e.g. mid-day) due to the conditions simply to avoid hypothermia. It is nice to be heroically light but it is nicer to finish. YMMV. 60% scratched in '16.

If you're racing all day in the rain you're going to get wet either from the rain or perspiration. Test what works for you being wet at 6C all day. Wet your gear, put it on and go out for a ride for 4 hours when it is sub 6C.

Personally I found wool singlet (Icebreaker)/wool cycling jersey (Icebreaker short sleeve) / wool arm & leg warmers (Defeet) with windstopper vest (Gore) and Gortex jacket & pants (Gore Bikewear AlpX), wool socks and Endura Waterproof gloves (hahaha) with Zpacks Overgloves (worked great but too tight to take on/off whilst riding) perfect for the conditions and to be able to keep warm whilst wet. The key is work out what will keep you warm enough when wet. The snowy and wet descent at 0C from Richmond Peak was too much for this and I had to put on a synthetic puffy (Rab Xenon) to Ovando. Never been cold enough to ride in a puffy before as I usually overheat after a few km's, but my base temp was so cold and wattage output so low that I rode a few hours like this without overheating.

I chose my synthetic puffy over down due to performance in humidity and ability to ride wearing it and maintain most insulation performance even if damp.

I was on 24 day pace which is not putting out the same heat as those on 16 day pace so they can of course get away with packing slightly less warm gear as they'll generate the body heat.

Coldest riding temps for me in '16 was -2C or -3C on a cloudless night riding south of Butte - but it was dry and better than the previous week in the rain. Overnight under -5C. Some mornings were sub zero and worse if on the west of a ridge line keeping me in the shade too long after sunrise. I think the 6-12th placed guys hit some serious -10C coldness south of Polaris.

Hi Matt,

The sheet is the usual "unofficial" start list. It was just posted by me and not Chris.

Chris Bennett (the "Cordillera folks", who posted this in the past few years) thanked me and I've been involved in the sheet in the past with Chris. This year I did the sheet, last couple of years Megan, before that was Chris and before that Dennis. Chris is working on editing the Cordillera (past 8 volumes available on Lulu.com) and it didn't cross my mind that it needed to be posted by him or that you needed to be involved for the first time this year. It is an unofficial list for the riders and you have never in the past been involved or even posted on the subject which is why it was posted in the same way as prior years. Chris is catching a long distance flight now, but do you want him to repost it himself, or are you OK having considered the above?

For '17 race it was posted on 30th Oct 16, for '13 race it was posted 1st Aug 2012 - seemed a good idea to have it on the first page of the thread on bikepacking.net - on FB it doesn't matter, but the Forum is date stamp sorted. I added some links to TD page, Trackleaders, FB, bikepacking.net - thought that would be a nice touch, but deleted them now. I also added the text on where the Cordillera is available as  contributions were very low this year and we want to raise awareness.

If there is something wrong with the form it can of course be amended, but it is the same as previous years with a couple more questions on tyre size, bike set up (full sus/HT/rigid) and front fork plus Strava name.

BTW: I have previously finished the TD (not "attempted" it) - I'm proud of it and rode as hard as I could the whole way.

[Edit: I have deleted the start list from here on Matt's request. It was the traditional unofficial listing - Matt Lee clarified this with Chris.]

About time to kick this thread off. Hope the fires this year haven't caused any issue on the trail.

I'm curious how those of you who have done these events would honestly answer this question:  Is this sport bad for your health?  

It's a good question - and being aware enough to ask it means you're in a position to be able to avoid issues.

Pre-TD:

* I had a good bike fit reviewed (by chance) by an ultraracer. His comment was to raise the aerobars 40mm - what is comfortable for 3 days is not necessarily comfy after 8. The bike fit meant I had no knee issues / position issues and dropped seat / put cleats back at Lima a little due to Achilles starting to get sore.

* Feet numbness - I got shoes 1 size larger than usual to allow for foot swelling

* Hand numbness - set your bike up for it - I rode rigid with 2.35 tubeless  at 22 / 24 psi. I had Ergon grips with mini bar ends. This set-up took out all road rumble (not the big stuff). I worked on core strength as the stronger your core the more it supports your body whilst riding and less weight is on your hands. Also too Spec BG gloves which have some gel pads in them.


Post TD:

Feet - got trench foot (hurt a lot at the time but no after effects) and slight toe numbess in little toes.

Hands - got slight numbness in left little finger. (I had a Rohloff so didn't use the left hand much whilst riding).

Body - took about 6m for my quads to recover as I failed to eat enough and my quads lost 4-5cm diameter as my body consumed itself to find fuel to burn.

If repeating:

* same bike setup (would try Lauf fork with 2.35's but AC too high for me)

* hands - same bar setup

* feet - oversized shoes again but more breathable

* nutrition - is a challange but I'd actually measure intake somehow to keep on top of it.

From recollection, trench foot can be a long term issue if it is bad - so watch feet and know what to do if you get it. Hand numbness seems to go away after some time (weeks to months).

However, there are some researchers looking at long term impacts on the heart of long term endurance sports athlets which is worth considering .... one paper is here
  ... http://www.mayoclinicproceedings.org/article/S0025-6196(12)00473-9/fulltext and an article by a cardiologist with good references is here ...http://www.newyorker.com/tech/elements/extreme-exercise-and-the-heart

I also hear annually how, increasingly, racers (mid-packers, I'd say) spend time on social media to inform their own experience on course, even as they race.  .... Part of my objection to too much FB activity (aka 'facebook fever'), particularly en vivo (mid-race), is the way it's pushed indiscriminately to the masses. I don't think it aids discretion, and it definitely promotes inorganic growth. I also hear annually how, increasingly, racers (mid-packers, I'd say) spend time on social media to inform their own experience on course, even as they race. They're pushing content out, but also taking it all in. Being fueled by this lust to check in, IMO, is just silly when the intent is to be having an intense personal odyssey.

Matt - you say above that mid-packers are spending time on social media mid race "being fueled by this lust to check in, IMO, is just silly when the intent is to be having an intense personal odyssey."

It is always good to fact check to enable evidence based decision making:

1. JayP posted on his FB page "en vivo" 17 times in 16 days (great posts JayP - keep on racing and good luck with the hand issue)

2. Billy Rice posted on his FB page "en vivo" 6 times over 2 days including video! (which was cool - get well soon Billy)

3. The total posts "en vivo" of EVERYONE on the larger FB group from the SOBO GD was only 18 times.

4. There were 120+ call-ins to MTB Cast. (Great to hear the calls of people - thanks Joe Polk)

So no, it is not the "mid-packers" (the hardest working riders in ultra-racing IMHO) who are posting mostly on FB - it is the front end who have the time and energy to spare after/during a long tough day - kudos to them.

However, IMO your criticism of people who post mid race is not black & white but more nauanced - people can have their own personal intense odyssey and still post a picture or a line of text - they are not mutually exclusive events for many people. The fact that it is mutually exclusive for you is OK too - we're all different and that's what makes ultraracing cool - a group of such different people passionate about pushing ourselves beyond our percieved limits whilst bikepacking the TD.

PS: Awaiting email reply re: ongoing discussions with some considerations to be had from the above thoughtful posts here too.

Back to the TD racing ... Geof and Denise have finished for first Tandem for '17!! 25:07:37.

I know Matthew is not fond of the new facebook 'forums' and I find it annoying that there are two of them that provide nearly the exact same content.  But it's also somewhat inevitable.  FB is taking up so much of people's attention bandwidth, groups like these aren't going to go away.  I discovered only midway through AZTR this year that there were two groups on FB about the race and I wasn't a member of either!

Photos and links could be easier here, for sure.  Unfortunately forum software development seems to be dying out, as well, as other forums are getting killed by FB (and other stuff) too.

Hi - as Admin of the first FB group referred to above just a little history. The first Group was set up after I contacted Matt and asked if I could use his TD FB page for getting people to get in touch with each other pre and post race. I was riding in '16 and we're all called Kevin out there, so I thought it would be a great way to keep in touch. He said very nicely no. So I set up a 2016 FB group in Jan '16 and it grew in size quite quickly and morphed somewhat from posting pics & blogs to more general stuff. I thought it was good when we had 20 members. It's now got over 3k members, which is low compared to the 10k on TD FB page and Ride the Divide.

Post ride I renamed the page a General page and presumed it would carry on. One of the members (Bonnie) of this group then set up a '17 page and added many of the members from the first group and thus 2 similar pages were born. There's now a '18 page with 100+ members.

Bonnie and I looked at merging the 2 larger FB groups in May/June but it is tricky as all the current posts die of one group and just the members move across - i.e. the content itself does not merge. She's out there riding now so it is something we'll discuss more perhaps when she is finishes (Go Bonnie!). I think that both groups follow the ethos of Bikepacking / ultra-racing and have developed without any "control" other than to keep them focussed on the subject. (Yeah, some commercial, inappropriate or political posts are deleted).

Matt has made his reservations (and reasons) clear and has given some guidance and the suggested changes have been made: new group title, edits to some posts, deleting some posts. (i.e. we haven't intentionally renamed the groups to sound similar, it was a result of this). Both Bonnie and I are doing our utmost to respect the wishes of Matt.

I personally think that the depth of knowledge on the FB Group is amazing and it is a great resource. It has a search function that works well and linking all replies under posts is pretty helpful and it runs across all years. I also like this forum and have read all prior years (preparation and race discussion) posts and agree with the comments above that it is great that the chronological order is kept on the forum.

Lisa and Rosemary's spots have not moved in the last 36 hours! Any idea why?

Scratched. Lisa has edema.

Stefan Maertens is racing again and is in better shape than his 6th place in '16.

Rob Davidson is racing too - 6th in '14, probably a good shot at a top 10 again in '17.

I may have missed  this earlier, but did the girls miss the turnoff (on the reroute in Canada) from wigwam onto lodgepole?
Looks they went straight into Roosville missing Cabin and Galton passes.

They headed into the Flathead then skipped right (south) early off Lodgepole avoiding Morrissey and Cabin and headed to Wigwam CG then up The Wall an over Galton Pass. There's snow on Morrissey so I guess that is why.

One week to go to the GD and 154 riders already are on Trackleaders, 2 SOBO ITT's have made it through the reroute to Fernie and Ashley Benns (Yo-YO)and KG are heading NOBO and are already in Wyoming. NOBO's hit snow on Indianna, Boreas and the pass between Clark and Brush Mountain Lodge.

In BC snow is out there on Koko Claims. Cabin Pass and Galton Pass are still unknown.

In MT Cricket Butler checked out Whitefish Divide and Red Meadow Pass which have snow, about a couple of miles each with warm weather coming over the next week.

No word on Richmond Pass but historically if Whitefish has snow then Richmond usually has a bit too.

Paul Attalla and Mark Cunnane's potential "Koko Claims" re-route report is attached:

https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1yiRlfjl0r49qqciiqC2ilC1PupsaE1m2N4_p4srwa3w/pub?start=true&loop=true&delayms=30000&slide=id.g1e28f1daeb_0_127