IS ANYONE ELSE TIRED OF PONDERING THESE THING?
Maybe it's time to recognize that trail magic is what it has actually become: a ticket to do whatever turns your crank. The precedent is clear and settled, right?

Yeah, I dunno, Toby. I'm not so fatigued over it partly cuz I don't hold down the shift key when i type (JK)...and i don't lose too much sleep over others' moral shortcomings.

I recall part of the problem with no TM whatsoever was 1) historical precedent for allowing it among the founding riders, and 2) truly enforcing such a rule, being against human nature, and not very neighborly to the giver, and all--not that I'm making excuses for taking TM too far. I don't claim to have the answer for all events or comers, and there's a slippery slope around every corner. What you're arguing for is borderline unsupported, and we call what we do self-supported, which is somewhere in between. Again, I dunno. One solution is to entirely eliminate placings and times and any reference to records, and then no one is really being harmed in a quantitative way by another's actions, save the part about reinforcing our reputation with locals for being a 'parade of water and food beggars'.

Just a guess here, but I'd be happy to take on a bunch of food beggars and private lodging poachers any day of the week and I'll beat em every time because while they're busy begging for food and water, or stopping short in dispersed communities to seek lodging, I'll be riding onward. I say this simply to point out comfort / security found in begging for your needs, doesn't make you faster. If anything it stresses you out.

...the new Basin to Butte section, which as I understand it, was brutal. Certainly a time suck. Had Jefe not had to ride that section, and just rode the highway as the others did, he would be crushing those records right now.

Interpretations on the new dirt, depending on timing, rider subjectivity will vary widely. It is definitely more difficult, but not by enough that Jefe would consider citing it as a factor. Weather overall, on the other hand, has been a real antagonist... The new segment adds ten miles, more climbing, and if Jefe is a gauge, +/- 1.5hrs. In 2011 he rode the old route in about 2:20min, and this year the new route in 3:45min

I thought, and maybe I was wrong, that you can take anything that is offered, equally, to all riders.  You can't take anything that is available only to you.

Yes, and equally to all has generally been defined as a fixed legitimate commercial business, ideally with some sense of history year-to-year. Not an erstwhile tortilla truck spot stalking racers in the desert. That's why trail magic is such a slippery thing, in that it's highly situational / spotty. It's appropriateness really lies in an honest interpretation of how the encounter came to be and the size of the gesture.

Just a note on dept timing... our monsoon season is June - monsoon june as we affectionately call it here. Any time after that is good. 

I thought June was called 'la primavera'  What do you call the heinous afternoon storms that plague Trans-Rockies in Aug? In the southern Rockies, monsoons are characterized by that daily wind-reversal cycle that stacks & drops.

Hello Everyone, great discussion here, learning about this event is an eye opener.
I'm the founder of Ibis Cycles, and Jefe is riding a new and so far unreleased bike of ours.
Jefe has been amazing to deal with and it's good to see him doing so well.
It's an understatement to say I've been obsessively checking the Tour Divide Race Tracker since June 13th.
Just wanted to say thanks for the discussion. I'm in awe of all of you who have done this or are doing it.
-Scot

Wow, we're honored to have an MTB HOFer chiming in. Welcome. What I would give to hear your stories from the 80s. Would be great to see a klunker tour of the Divide one day. Cheers!

[What would Matthew do?]

When making decisions on the race, ask yourself:   What would Matthew do?

There, all settled.

No, no, I don't want to be put on a pedestal, just put me on my pedals, that's all. Seriously, there are plenty of more worthy role models than myself. One need only look abroad into other verticals like climbing to find the kind of integrity we're talking about. A bike can be a funny thing. Just about anyone can learn to ride one, so it can be a conveyance of wisdom and rank negligence. I've learned a cyclist isn't to be trusted automatically just b/c they're on a bike. In regards to Divide racing, let's not forget about people like Mike Curiak who, prickly as he was towards lurkers of this thing we now call ultra bikepacking, did / does have his values in the right place. In his defense, he absolutely shuddered to think of the niche being dumbed downed / overtaken by, as McElveen phrased up-thread, "a parade of water and food beggars".

If you're not sure whether you want to tour or race, tour first.  Have the courage and pride and ego strength to pick the one you'll get the most from.

Hear, hear! Have the ego strength to admit you're not ready to race the GDR first, and that you might need at least one 3-day tour with your brand-spanking new kit before trying to race a 3week grand tour. I defaulted to tour mode the first time i 'raced' the route in 2004. A series of setbacks and way too much kit (tent, stove, wardrobe change) forced me to keep it slow. I am still friends with many of the saloon acquaintances i met that year. I also took the time to get lost along the way. It's through getting lost (looking at the intersections from upside down) that one gets to know a route through and through. By my third edition I rode the route free of any maps, cues or GPS. That was a scary but liberating experience. "Placement before power", isn't that the age-old coaching phrase regarding technique

So if you had kids and could take them on section of a few hundred miles what section would you take them?

Jarral, not sure how rugged your cubs can handle, but I might consider just running the Spray Lake / Smith-Dorrien road all the way to K-country with a minor detour to camp along the west side of Spray Lake (at the campground). Elk River Rd is also super nice / more remote, but Elk Pass connecting K-country and Elk R. Rd might be a debbie-downer. Lots of side trips along Smith-Dorrien...and I'd carry fly rods. Mid to late July b/f their monsoons would be good timing. The only downside to the Smith-Dorrien would be gapers in cars. They can get thick at times. Start your program on the eve of departure with high tea at the Banff hotel and a soak in the upper hotsprings.

Regardless of whether he beats JayP's "ITT record" of 15:16:14, he seems destined to be close to beating the "Grand Depart record" of 16:02:46 of Ollie Whalley. The current projection on Trackleaders is for 16:11:35, so it could be a tight finish there.

Projections don't take into account the 15-18mph avg speed Jefe will keep between Cuba and Pie Town & Silver City to AW, so that # is skewed. It's hard to code (simply), for future speeds. Yes, it does look like Jefe will be very close to Ollie's time no matter. Ollie ran out of light in the Separ Desert in his final hours, forcing him to sleep for a while / pushing him over 16days. He should have been 15:23 or so. Ollie had very similar conditions to What JayP sees for his fall runs, except Ollie had an hour more light each day.

I have asthma too, and I'd DQ myself from a self-supported race if I needed to accept an inhaler. But I'd give a spare to any rider needing one in a heartbeat.

It's been a while since I've heard the, "what is true trail magic?", discussion brought up--and please let's not derail this thread towards that-- but I thought the TM definition was somewhat settled back in the day--that a racer can offer another trail magic ONCE and both riders remain in good standing with rules. An inner tube, use of a tool, an inhaler, sharing or floating an energy bar, etc. We accept this about group starts. The key is in the intent and pre-planning element. For that one instance, even a fellow rider meets the TD definition of a bystander (a necessary ingredient of true trail magic). None of these gestures, save the inhaler, will make or break someone's race, and the inhaler falls under a medical emergency-type 'good smaritan' exemption, IMHO. Preplanning to ride together and share kit is a big no-no, therefore it's customary when two riders fall into multi-day pace together to conduct themselves well above the trail magic allowance--which is a good clean approach... but serendipitous gesturing (again, by definition happens only once) is ok. I think we all know / are supposed to recognize when our behavior crosses the line and true advantage is gained.

The above rider-to-rider type of trail magic, and the heightened awareness by local businesses towards the riders of the grand depart are the two true distinctions between a grand depart and truly independent time-trialing. They are definitely different ways to skin the cat. I personally rode alone 90% of my entire Divide racing career, so for me there was little difference, but these days, for mid-packers, it's a different story.

Bravo Payton! I too, "hope that other people are thinking the same way."

I'm not sure I agree the mission of the touring experience and racing are mutually exclusive. For a front runner, I lingered famously at times with locals or shop keeps. I've heard plenty of bear stories and the like, met many a local in my time racing the Divide. I made it a priority. I wasn't in a joint 5 minutes before I knew folks names, and what they did for a living, etc. I used to play jokes on chasing racers by getting shop keeps to tell them I stayed two minutes and all I bought was water & beer. I would leave them my extra food. Point is, You *can* do all that *and* still race. You learn to recognize the moments--as any seasoned traveler intuits. I wouldn't have raced 7 times if that cultural element wasn't rich. LOVE the people of the route. Salt of the earth...shaped by the Divide. I especially love them Canadians...and their Kokanee.

This is a game of chess not strength when it comes down to these kind of times....I will continue to follow from here on out and happy bikepacking to all

Welcome back to the states, JP, and thanks for helping us channel the ghost up front.

Im feeling it out here
U know - pure bliss
In the moment
I would like to stay here forever

Ha! Change begins at two weeks. The oft' hardened heart opens up. Cool, Mark!

Looks like he's ~14.75 hrs behind The Ghost.

I don't think it's quite that much time. JayP slept just north of the NM border last night, crossing into NM at 0530am. If Jefe keeps moving, he can be to the border by 4pm.

Unfortunately his timing coming into Abiquiu is not good. He'll need to lean on Sylvia at the snack shack, for sure.

Jefe got a LOT of sleep last night (for him at least). Is the big push coming?

Could be. He really needs to do it soon. I asked him when I spoke to him in Rawlins if he had JP's night splits written down anywhere, to which he replied, "I don't have anything, I wasn't planning to race to match times"

Tonight JayP sleeps up on top of Polvadera Mesa just south of Abiquiu for 3.5hrs. Tomorrow night he sleeps on the Pie Town Rd for about the same duration, and his final night, just before the Sapillo CDT segment he racks for a restless 4-ish, so Jefe's only got three overnights left to trim time while JP sleeps. His alternative best bet is to go for quality speed as often as possible--a tall order at this stage. Pacing gets so sloppy by the end it's hard to control speed for very long. This is when tactics come into play like singing to yourself / screaming at yourself / talking to the trees, smacking yourself in the face, doing stand up comedy, whatever it takes. Jefe needs to pit at Beaverhead Work Ctr just before the end of his final night on the trail. Now that he knows there's fresh cold water there (he missed it in 2011), I don't think he'll be denied, which, if he can ride on down the N. Star Rd even an hour or two more, will put him only an hour or so behind for the final stretch.

Mike Hall just hit the finish of the Trans Am.

I was just about to post the same. I rec'd this to my inbox, which is basically him signing off:

From: noreply@findmespot.com
12:40 AM (13 minutes ago)
To: me
Device:Trace-084
Latitude:-99999
Longitude:-99999
Date/Time:06/24/2014 20:40:18 AKDT

Message: Your SPOT Trace has been powered off.

Click the link below to see where the asset is located.
http://fms.ws/HcCiC/99999S/99999W

I nominate Toby to be Judge Jury and executioner! If everyone is so concerned about rule infractions in essentially a "non event" then some sort of authority should be responsible for determining placing and DQ's.

At the end of a clean honorable run, try telling a TD racer (particularly from the the sharp end of the peloton) their ride was a non-event. Try telling anyone in any pick-up game of hoops or whatever for that matter, that what they're participating is a non-event. We've all heard of / lined up for 'Saturday Worlds' before.

I have endured some unbelievable, drawn-out-over-months debates with relegated TD racers. It's a dirty job that no bootleg event organizer should have to endure. That's why, after a few years hiatus from suffering thru official results, TD is going to a self-administered results spreadsheet for 2014. Submit your own time, if you know you're worthy. If you prevaricate under 'oath', it's your cross to bear. If a fellow racer or bystander wants to call someone out for cheating, no problem, peer-policing is the way it should be managed, but as I hope Max is prepared to do, one must be willing to own one's accusations by putting one's name to them. No more anonymous reporting or heresay.

Like the same info you would have if you rode the route the year before?

This was another reason cited for abandoning never forward. The route is now famously well documented / pre-ridden

That does seem like a harsh rule. I wonder what that's about? You'd think if you returned to the same spot you would be good to go ?

Re. the, 'never forward', rule, first let me just say you guys are all getting so soft. No one ever complained about this rule before social media was invented...(ok, just kidding...sort of).

I should clarify--and I just restored the proper version to the rules--there was a change to this rule the year after Chris B. had his asthma attack and Erik Lobeck his (legitimate for the rule in play at the time) DQ. The rule was discussed at length in that off-season with all the old-schoolers, including John Stamstad, and it was decided that with the advent of SPOT tracking and GPS logging, the, 'never forward on route', rule (by hitch) had become obsolete, and although necessary in the early era to ensure the route was always ridden (or walked) in it's entirety, and to provide some penalty for hitching, we now (generally) have the tech to ensure a rider returns to the site of the hitch. Was the rule harsh? Yes, if you were the one on the wrong end of it. If one was the guy in Max Morris' shoes, the punishment was totally appropriate. What it allowed for was a race to be totally turned on end because of a serious mechanical. That was exciting. It injected parity, and thoroughly tested integrity.

Anyway, sorry for any reigning confusion. The TD.org site crashed sometime in May and current rules page was corrupted beyond salvage (I was told), so bits / pieces of an earlier version of the rules got restored. I proofed it, but must have missed that reversion--or it else it has changed again since. Woops. I reviewed the full rules again just now and they look complete. ~Matthew

Sam mentioned they are working on their Spot situation in his most recent call. They're both kind of busy right now though.

I organized a warranty replacement of their failed tracker. Spot overnighted it to the Quality Inn in Silverthorne. It's activated and ready to ping.

Justin, you'll be pleased to know that a couple of years ago I had aspirations for a standing 14ers live SPOT tracker map taking off, being used by the masses, but we've yet to promote it (for various reasons). However, the mapping work is (thankfully) done. Check out all the (primary) routes on our Nolan's live tracker by panning around the map: http://trackleaders.com/nolans14
Giddy up!