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41  Forums / Ultra Racing / Re: 2022 Tour Divide Preparation & Planning on: June 02, 2022, 08:34:43 AM
^but is Mike's record "official"
weren't there paved road reroutes in New Mexico and the old route through BC?

Actually I think that FKTs are becoming pointless with many races having significant route changes every year.
If people still care about records, then it should be who has won the most Grand Departs/mass start races like for rest of the bike racing world.
42  Forums / Ultra Racing / Re: AZTR 2022 Announcements on: May 29, 2022, 07:55:17 AM
Terry Smith !

Malcolm Wade in 2019.  Age, country, bike and route deviations  nono match
43  Forums / Ultra Racing / Re: AZTR 2022 Announcements on: May 28, 2022, 08:37:45 PM
And now for something completely different!

Guy Martin (Isle of Mann TT racer and famous British TV presenter) talks about doing the AZTR
starts at 5:25
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5aTvOBDEdSw
44  Forums / Ultra Racing / Re: AZTR 2022 Announcements on: May 20, 2022, 04:58:26 PM
The other thing is that the more a bikepack racer draws attention to themselves on social media, regular media or even regular internet, and also try to benefit from the attention (whether achieving an FKT or just finishing), the more on-line spectators and other bikepackers will look that every t was crossed and i dotted.

I don't see Lael as being targeted because she is a woman or that her wife filmed her, but because she has been benefiting the most from the media attention (maybe thinking better to ask for forgiveness than to ask for permission?).  When you are our figurehead you should go above and beyond to set a good example.
45  Forums / Ultra Racing / Re: AZTR 2022 Announcements on: May 20, 2022, 04:09:58 PM
Hey jsliacan (or anyone). How would you word a rule to try to prevent "Trail Slight of Hand"?
"Trail Slight of Hand", as in non-serendipitous Trail Magic, definitely provides an unfair advantage to the individuals it has been targeted towards.

Take a look at Sections 3.2 and 3.3 in https://www.lesperitdelbikepacking.org/lesperit-de-girona-rules.  Although, I would revise that flow chart to not only not allow serendipity providing a means to finish (preventing a DNF) but to also not allow means for a racer to be faster
46  Forums / Ultra Racing / Re: 2022 Tour Divide Preparation & Planning on: May 19, 2022, 09:04:45 PM
^ take it easy at the start and let the first half of the pack bulldoze a trench or pack down a trail

"after you"
"no after you"
47  Forums / Ultra Racing / Re: AZTR 2022 Announcements on: May 13, 2022, 01:57:37 PM
Who pays for aid stations?  Bikepack races in North America typically don't have entry fees.

As far as annoying noises,
I rate drones more annoying than constant nearby gun fire (such as along RedNeckington Road), but less than a swarm of voracious mosquitos trying to get into your ears and every other orifice
48  Forums / Ultra Racing / Re: AZTR 2022 Announcements on: May 11, 2022, 10:17:59 AM
Although, I expect that riders competed in the 1800s over long multi-day/week routes (likely to be the first to cross a country or continent), the first modern style competitive bikepacking race I learned of in 1987 (and completed in 1989) was the Iditabike on a 200 mile section of the Iditarod trail in Alaska.

 
There was a mandatory gear list (checked by officials before the start) to ensure that racers could be self-sufficient (aka unsupported) so they wouldn't get themselves killed. Such as the requirement to have a stove to melt snow and bivy gear to sleep out a whiteout at -40 degrees.  The gear/self supported rules didn't need a pedantic debate, as there were no radio or satellite trackers or communication devices to call for help, and there were no spectators or any other people on the trail between lodges/camps at night. If you couldn't self support you could die (the race motto was "Cowards won't show and the weak will die").

jsliacan, you have an issue with ""If your bike breaks, you can continue to the next town on foot." - this rule is not realistic, because it only allows hike-a-bike in case the bike breaks.""   Why not realistic? For AZTR and CTR, motor vehicles are not allowed on much of the route, and in the case of the AZTR, you can be days between towns (and don't see how a timer to remind you to shop will help).  Just as with the Iditabike, if you are not prepared to walk (such as Sarah did for the 2016 AZTR) you either hit the red button on your Spot and disqualify yourself or you die.  jsliacan, your comments imply that you don't understand the conditions we encounter on the AZTR or CTR, yet alone winter ultras.  The original rules didn't have to say "no visitation or media crews" because it was understood they wouldn't be there when you needed help/rescue.

Visitation has become a problem because of abuse.  Cache boxes in the middle of the desert, which the RDs have said to not rely on (because they are mainly for hikers and are a matter of life and death for hikers, and that bikers should not expect them to be sufficiently stocked for race use) suddenly have spectators and the boxes are well stocked with water which would not have been there except for being supplied by race spectators.  But more annoying were the empty pizza boxes and food wrappers which indicated that the lead racers restocked their food with "Trail Magic" which I say is really just "Trail Slight of Hand".  And if you weren't in the top 5 or 10 racers, there was no Trail Magic for the following racers. So visitation is not only providing emotional support, but also nutritional support for the *star* athletes.  Not only that, the cache boxes are not to be used for food, as it will attract wildlife, so not only against race rules, but against trail/land manager rules.  The *star* and local athletes end up having a big advantage over other racers, as they will know ahead of time that they can pack lighter and rely on resupply, while the other racers have to pack extra food and water just in case.

As well, I too am against camera crews on trail. I have had issues with camera motos (now ebikes) slowing me down in stage races as they block the trail following their *star* athlete, and I have read others didn't like them for the dust they caused in the Tour Divide.
49  Forums / Ultra Racing / Re: AZTR 2022 Announcements on: May 08, 2022, 08:56:40 PM
Toby aka Done came down from the mountain in 2012 with stone tablets full of wisdom
http://tobygadd.blogspot.com/2012/05/ultra-racing-rules.html

some highlights
  • As the boundaries that define the spirit of ultra-racing are trampled and distorted through ignorance and entitlement, the sport is quickly becoming a free-for-all, where the final results justify the means. One racer even tried to argue that, since ultra-racing isn?t sanctioned, there aren't really any rules anyway.
  • But the devil is always in the details. While race organizers have tried to keep the rules simple, with the idea that a few basic principles will be properly interpreted to address a myriad of unforeseen situations, more specific directives have often been added for clarification. Indeed, the Tour Divide and Colorado Trail Race have a growing list of rules, and many pages of FAQs, addressing such issues as visitation, cell phone usage, alternative routes, etc.
  • Pre-planned camera crews for "famous" riders are banned from many races for good reason. For a sport that's all about a solo challenge, having a crew following along will always change the dynamics. If in doubt, contact the organizer. Personally, I'm not a fan of crews--regardless of how careful they are.

Big discussion about the "Spirit of the Tour Divide" on bikepacking.net in 2014 here http://www.bikepacking.net/forum/ultra-racing/the-spirit-of-the-tour-divide/
Toby's response in that thread to ABfolder is a classic
ABfolder on November 24, 2014, 06:48:00 AM "I have to say I was a little taken aback when I watched Ride the Divide and saw Mike Dion's stash of blue pills."
Toby's response: "Little blue pills, eh? Gotta be Viagra. Definitely against the rules, as that certainly wouldn't qualify as self-support."
50  Forums / Ultra Racing / Re: AZTR 2022 Announcements on: May 07, 2022, 10:52:43 PM
Bikepack racing is not intended to be a spectator sport!

That has been the philosophy since at least 2011 according to this website, and rules were even stricter according to magazine articles back in the 1990s/2000s
There have been no rule changes, only clarifications of the original spirit of the no visitation rule when people tried to bend of break it.  There were discussions back before 2016 about what "visitation" meant, so go check the old threads (there are hundreds of pages, I am not going to do your homework for you).

But first you must complete a multi-day/multi-week bikepack race, before you start trying to change the spirit of the original rules

ps; how could bikepack racers not be aware of the no visitation and no media rule (L & R asked the RD for and were granted an exemption prior to the 2019 Divide)
51  Forums / Ultra Racing / Re: AZTR 2022 Announcements on: May 06, 2022, 08:22:51 AM
The AZTR as do most other North American bikepack races refer to the original Tour Divide rules
https://tourdivide.org/the_rules
52  Forums / Ultra Racing / Re: AZTR 2022 Announcements on: May 05, 2022, 10:44:00 AM
Why has following debatable rules become an issue?
Maybe because it's upsetting when your hero or role model does something questionable. You look to them for examples to help make your own ethical decisions while competing.

Such as, I find that during bikepack races I am forced to frequently make ethical decisions just trying to follow a line on a GPS.  Even zooming in and out, there is still often a discrepancy between the line on the device and what I see on the ground in real life*. For the 2016 AZTR, at times, I had to wander back and forth when my GPS showed that I was off track, trying to find a corresponding track or trail, and if I couldn't find something that seemed right (for example I backtracked to go the hard way, but I am pretty sure lots of you took the double track on the wrong side of a fence down Oracle Ridge and missed a section of singletrack and a couple difficult gates), and other times deciding to follow the tracks of those that went before me even though I think they took the easier faster way. Other ethical choices occur when you leave the mapped route to go to a store (do you go back to the south corner of the parking lot or go straight to the north corner to rejoin the route?)

I think the leaders and record holders should be held to a higher standard, as in a way they are setting the standard for the rest of us**. Ultimately the style in which one completes a bikepack route is more important that how fast one completes it.





*I have done GPS events where the goal is to ride as many different mtn bike trails in North Vancouver in one day, tracked with your phone or GPS and submitted onto TrailForks. In preparation, I pre-rode to compare the differences between an iphone, ETrex and Map64 (the most accurate one with the large antennae) and likely due to the routes displayed on TrailForks being created with inferior devices, you can get widely varying results such as being credited with riding a trail you didn't or not riding a trail you did, or given a Leader Board fastest time when you shouldn't.

** Why weren't some of the leading men for the 2019 Tour Divide not held to the same standard as Lael. There are videos showing that one of the leading men had his daughter help fill a water bottle in New Mexico, and another guy's bros filmed him on course (young men commonly die showing off for their bros, so don't tell me a romantic partner implies an unfair higher level of emotional support)
53  Forums / Ultra Racing / Re: AZTR 2022 Announcements on: May 04, 2022, 05:34:13 PM
It didn't have to be this way...
Unless it HAD to be this way... For the money.

That is what I was wondering from the very start. 
After what happened during the Divide in 2019, ignorance is not an excuse. So, was purposefully creating controversy part of a plan?
I feel sorry for Lael if that was the case, she gets the backlash while others profit.
54  Forums / Ultra Racing / Re: AZTR 2022 Announcements on: April 25, 2022, 04:35:42 PM
Is there a correlation?
Along the x-axis Watchers/Fans who have never bikepacked at one end and Pointy-End-Racers at the other end,
And the y-axis would represent how highly each individual would rate the importance of the *

Of course even if there is some correlation, there will be some outliers. As well, the number of Watchers would dwarf the number the Racers
55  Forums / Ultra Racing / Re: AZTR 2022 Announcements on: April 23, 2022, 01:32:45 PM
Why didn't Lael sign on to Trackleaders as an orange dot to start with, and save her reputation and everyone else all the hassle and drama?
56  Forums / Ultra Racing / Re: AZTR 2022 Announcements on: April 22, 2022, 10:55:24 AM
Thank you. Good job John

If bikepack FKTs begin to have a fully supported category like trail runners do, then it won't be bikepacking anymore, it will be a stage race in the same way that Tour de France ended up where it is today even though it started with self support only
57  Forums / Ultra Racing / Re: AZTR 2022 Announcements on: April 17, 2022, 09:05:28 AM
What happened to Aaron D?
He sure seems to have a string of bad luck
58  Forums / Ultra Racing / Re: New BP Race in Colorado! on: January 20, 2022, 11:23:06 AM
MexiRado
NewColoMexiRado
NewColoMexiRadoExpialidocious
59  Forums / Ultra Racing / Re: AZTR: Fall 2021 Race Discussion on: November 13, 2021, 07:06:46 AM
Did Alexandera and Zack finish with Jolly?
60  Forums / Ultra Racing / Re: AZTR: Fall 2021 Race Discussion on: November 07, 2021, 12:02:11 PM
In 2016 Neil B
Moving Time 5:02     Stopped Time 1:12   Moving Average Speed 6.2     Route Distance per Day 114.5   Route average speed 4.8

In 2021 Nate G
Moving Time 4:18:29 Stopped Time 4:16   Moving Average Speed 7.0     Route Distance per Day 84.3    Route average speed 3.5

Looks like the classic tortoise vs the hare
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