Thanks man!

I hear ya there...definitely an expensive endeavor

I think it looks great! Very straight forward with the two different categories. I'm throwing my name into the hat this year for a shot at the Triple Crown Challenge! Probably going to go bankrupt, but whatever... I hope Mark C. goes for the "Double-Triple"

Well said Marshal. I too believe that it is in the race organizer's hands. If I want to create my own bikepacking event in the middle of the summer in Yuma and set a rule that outlaws sunscreen then so be it! Not many people will come, but if I'm putting forth the effort to create and maintain a certain race, I believe it is only fair that I should have a set of rules. I think that if anyone disagrees with the set rules, they will either try talking some sense into the organizer or show up to ride the course on any other day of the year using your own rule set.

DP, I like that. Maybe a little more emphasis on self-relegation and an official way to do so or a person to ask if such an event warrants relegation. That could get messy though, so I believe self-relegation should be looked at as more honorable than being relegated by one's peers or an "official" because of an intentional rule infraction

I would like to think I'm a pretty outspoken person, but I think I'm totally split decision on this one... I'm sympathetic to both sides and totally understand the people that want a specific set of rules, but I also understand the need to have a little common sense and integrity about the simple rules and just to enjoy the ride for what it is. I'm torn.

So maybe we just need to get more "gray" and not care so much... The competitors that are actually trying to break records are probably the best stewards of following the rules, so I guess in the end...does it really matter?

And around and around we go...

Yah that is very true... I'm sure we all have a billion of these situations that have personally happened during these rides... So how can we rightfully criticize anyone for breaking the "rules"?

That would be the easiest way to cut through the most amount of grey matter that we are experiencing

I do think that the whole "Trail Magic" think is kind of what makes things start to turn grey...where do you draw the line? That is when we run into a ton of different "what if" scenarios. So I say do away with trail magic. PERIOD

Just like I think the rule of "no drafting" is very straight forward. There is zero room for interpretation there and I made sure that every step of the way when I would run across different racers during the TD this year I would never even get close to a drafting position behind them. Very easy straight forward rule

Yah that is very true, I understand the conundrum. I think whoever has the most invested in creating each race such as Scott or Matt. I personally don't really care what the rules are, but more that they are spelled out a little more so that newcomers know what is right and what is wrong. As far as what they are....it's not as important. I feel like if Scott were to say, "No cell phones allowed" or something as black and white as that then maybe not everyone agrees with it, but if they want to "race" they must not use a cell phone. If they want to ride the course any other day or time then have at it.

Really Nice!

I just know that I must have asked 20 or 30 of these kinds of "support" questions throughout my first race and on the threads. So if it was just collaboratively put onto an FAQ page, wouldn't that at least be a step in the right direction? As of now, newcomers must comb through hundreds and hundreds of pages of past race to pick posts out here and there to put together what they "think" are some of the scenarios they might experience during their first race. I don't know...I understand that there would be a never ending list and I also understand that the simple rules that we have now "should" be enough, but I just feel like this is the only constructive idea I really can think of...

I agree that there are a million "what if" situations Eszter, but even if we were to write down as many as we can collectively think of, wouldn't that give someone who is brand new to the sport a better look at what veterans see as "support"?

I'm definitely in for the 750 this year! I was only a month out last year when I got my broke ass leg

oh by the way.........TRIPLE CROWN!

I'm going for it! I gotta find some time in there to get married though...seriously

As for enforcement...I believe that once we put all of these FAQ's in a certain place and require new racers to know the rules, then we can truly enforce them. I love the peer on peer enforcement and I believe that most individuals will abide by the rules in order to keep their honor and pride

I think you have some really great ideas about educating new bikepackers Marshal. I personally feel like the rules aren't necessarily ambiguous at all, but I also believe that their are many of those "what if" or "grey area" situations that need to be addressed to new bikepackers such as:

-Can you call ahead for a room?
-Can you call a food delivery person?
-If someone offers you something without you asking for it, can you take it?

I mean there really could be a hundred of these stupid questions we could probably all come up with, but if we actually had an FAQ sections for rookies to read through some of the questions we all had when we started this type of racing wouldn't it be beneficial?

Just a thought...

I don't know if I can take reading this particular thread for much longer simply due to hearing a ton of repetitive answers, but I figured I would throw in my two cents as a much younger bikepacker that has been out on the AZT and the TD. My first bikepacking experience was in 2012 during the AZT 300. I can admit that before the race I felt like I understood most of the rules, but definitely did not as well as I do now. When I pushed through an impassible section of "death mud" north of Kentucky Camp, I completely ruined my drive train. I slowly hiked/carried the bike to the main asphalt road and had to get a ride into Tucson to get parts. A few hours later, I returned to the exact same spot on the road and then continued on to the trail. The important part of the story is that the first thing I did when I got into that vehicle was log onto bikepacking.net and explained my situation. I wasn't quite sure how motorized transport "worked" as far as rules went and when I found out I was relegated I wasn't butt hurt and kept pedaling all the way to Picket Post. I even saw Scott M. blazing past me up on Mt. Lemmon and made a point to explain to him exactly what happened, but that I still wanted to complete the race for my fallen brothers. I didn't need to do all that, but I felt like I didn't want to hide anything from all my peers and I had questions about the rules so I ASKED. There are two big points that people keep hitting and I agree with them both.

-Rookies do need some mentoring from more experienced bikepackers so they can actually learn the rules and know the ways of the sport. (I learned a ton during my very first experience from Mark C. and Marshal and I pass it on to as many people as I meet in the community)

(Also just because you're young doesn't make you a rookie and just because your old doesn't make you a veteran)

-The second major point is if you don't understand what a rule is, then ask. If you don't care about what a rule is, then don't expect to be taken as a competitor in a RACE