[will]

That's quite a jump to go from knowing where your competitors are to allowing full on support crews and caches.  I'm not seeing it--still don't understand how getting SPOT intel is even in the same realm.  We can disagree, though.

seems to me the early reasons for the absence of outside support were to tread as lightly as possible, avoid permits, costly/time consuming infrastructure, entry fees, etc, not to design the most masochistic challenge possible with better than 50% attrition rates.

w/ all due respect for individual ideals, i'm not sure i see the need to designate two classes of bikepacking races. ITT doesn't really need separate recognition aside from an asterisk, does it? perhaps ITTs will evolve to be viewed as a slightly bigger mental challenge and a "tougher" way to bust out a route, but i see no need to polarize the genre with ITT way on the other end of the spectrum from group starts. most participants fall in the middle, anyway. do they just get lost?

the genre was really only called (er, misnamed) an ITT b/c of the no drafting rule and b/c early on in the popularity curve most people would go it solo. as someone mentioned in the forums b/f, the events are really more like randonneuring races. self-reliance (more so than pure self-support)--especially btwn towns--being the emphasis.

If you do call the pure solo efforts ITTs then consider that they are still approached with strategy geared towards matching historical splits of course records. Is that historical split info not a form of outside support? certainly when one is successfully matching splits along the way it's empowering mentally (and vice versa). it's just not in vivo as SPOT data are.

In general I like your rules for the dream race, especially #9.

the rule of no (forward) advancement on route when being extracted under powers other than one's own (by vehicle or stretcher) was designed to prevent a racer from gaining advantage by seeing the route ahead (preview). i must admit that in the case of serious injury or health concerns, fanatical adherence to this rule doesn't make sense if the only ride out to the hospital is forward. i would be inclined to cut a TD racer a break if such a preview took place from a stretcher or gurney.

[re. cell phone ethics], Limiting topics of conversation is hard to imagine, I wouldn't want to go down that road.

i tend to agree. it only creates more moral dilemmas. just as allowing them to be carried but banning their use does. if you allow a phone to be carried, then you're admitting there is at least some scenario in which it's OK to use it (DQ or not). IMO, that's "going down that road". it's much easier to simply allow their use for whatever. it takes time away from riding to use them anyway, which is just another trapping.

You were excited about *everyones* whereabouts, not just mine...But, it absolutely, irrevocably, changes the game.
Stefan could have called Maggie [kurt's girlfriend] for some mojo uplift and beta?  Seriously, you don't see how this is outside support?

re. outside support, it all depends on how we define/measure outside support. what about GPS nav used to determine one's own whereabouts? is that not outside (satellite) support? Less self-reliant? is it OK to download a track to navigate that you did not generate yourself? Has GPS not already irrevocably changed self-support racing, self-reliance in general?

SPOT tracking changes aren't irrevocable; privatizing data, night time tracking blackouts, rules (like iditarod has) against using tracking data to strategize. there's plenty of ways to eliminate it as a factor. in `08, Iphones were blocked from accessing TD tracking data. controlling those data is not hard if that's what we decide is best. just like the SPOT tracking imbroglio in alaska last winter, it's not the fact that we are gathering data that is a problem, it's how/if it's regulated.

when i conceived of tracking for TD08, it was 2005. i was racing GDR. i wanted a way to animate the event for my family, my sponsors, spectators and to graph each competitor's ride for the books. improved safety was not a factor. improved strategizing was unintended. as someone in this thread pointed out (at least for some events), there's better split info available on the ground--is that outside support, or just trail magic? for that matter, racing en masse from a common start time is a form of outside support--or could it have the opposite effect if you go too hard to mark a faster rider then blow-up? Hard to say. fellow ITTers are carrots like anything else. perhaps self-support group racing is something less than pure solo-self-support ITTs and ought be called as much, treated separately from the original solo efforts that inspired it all.

I just don't see it as unleveling things though maybe it's just me. If you can send to a post office, why not a public place? I think they're likely to be open far more hours than a PO which is important in tiny places. Of course you should make sure the businesses don't mind and/or compensate them. I happily compensated Absolute for accepting my box of spare parts and fixing my bike and I'd likely do the same for a restaurant or a hotel.

The financial issue is moot to me. Those with $ can eat better, ride a nicer bike and pay for faster shipping. It doesn't make them tougher or faster. Why should people willing to spend money be penalized for it? If it takes a little more money to go as fast as possible in a race, then perhaps people will just save a little more or abuse the CC that much extra. Money makes a difference all over the race, shipping is just a tiny area. With the realities of traveling far and fast, it's not like you could realistically send packages to pick up every day? You can't buy your way across the GDMBR, you have to pedal!

As always, i'll follow whatever the rules are but the shipping thing, like the cell phone thing, don't quite add up in my mind.

first, although this is a worthy aspect of rules to discuss, fretting with shipping stuff mid-race will only slow a racer down, so i hope that's more the take-home msg than what is/isn't ethical. it takes up time you could be racing to manage it all. it's just another mcguyvered trapping of our western travel ethos. if at all possible, i think doing without should be our party line.

so, in general i'm not sure making easy the shipping of non-emergency supplies mid race to commercial addrs, period, jives with self-support/preparedness ethos. if done prior to race clock start it's even arguably preplanned outside assistance (beyond what limited human contact a general delivery pkg gets at a PO).

for divide racing, POs are allowed for those who MUST ship ahead for special diets or what-nots like Emergen-C or glucosamine or weed (i've "heard"), but it's not encouraged (with all due respect for our gluten-intolerant bretheren, of course). I always advise racers against using POs except at the halfway point of a race long enough to require chain replacement. live off the land as much as possible, me thinks. besides, it's impossible to plan well with shipping anyway. one will likely ride away from a PO post-resupply with way more weight than they ought carry, among other disadvantages. not to mention the bigger carbon footprint, FWIW.

PO shipping addrs database = available to all racers easily on one website. commercial addrs require birddogging, local/regional/national savvy, above-average command of the english language, abundant phone calls, etc. and this certainly disadvantages the international riders to some extent. calling (read: hassling) those businesses ahead of time (and even mid-race) to ensure feasibility seems no bueno. such legwork is not the case for POs. their terms are pretty cut and dry. BTW, the absolute bikes example is a fine one to cite as a symbiotic relationship for happy-happy commercial shipping but that is the exception, not the rule on the GDMBR.

[except to POs]

hey kurt,
i think i get what you were layin' down re. shipping.

if it lends 2c to the discussion, in order to avoid shipping abuse, TD rules have always specified that nothing may be shipped anywhere except to POs unless it is an emergency. Only in this case can a commercial address be used to solve the issue. Emergency is defined as a loss an essential piece of equipment (arm warmer, glove, cyclometer, etc.), immediate need for an essential medicine not available OTC (ie. prescribed for a medical condition) OR if one HAS experienced or IS experiencing failure of some essential bike part (pedal, chain, drivetrain, etc.) necessary to continue racing normally/safely.

In these emergencies we suggest you contact the commercial destination to inform them of your plans to ship there. it's only polite. As ambassadors of the GDMBR, we don't want to go shipping things well ahead of the race clock to random commercial addrs, nilly willy. businesses can be sketchy along the route anyway. you're as likely not to find a business open/available as you are to miss a PO drop. Plus, such behavior introduces a financial advantage for those willing to throw $ at lots of commercial (overnight/express) shipping.

Shipping basic food supplies or some other non-essential creature comfort to commercial addrs. once the race clock begins simply because it's easier or as a way to adjust timing for a more optimal delivery schedule seems to unlevel things. what do others have to say on this? i suppose a note from one's doctor about gluten intolerance might be a reasonable exception on certain long distance routes.

as for marshall's electronics rule, TD is happy to give him credit for his version posted above as long as he cites TD as his source of inspiration.

Love the GWT alternate meanings.

From my time on sections n. of kimball junction and south of provo canyon, me thinks the best is "Great White Trash" trail for all the 4wheeler/moto doubletrack + hunters, etc.

Still, a dirty thru-route is a dirt thru-route and hard to resist when it links up singletrack sweetness along the way. Stunning scenery on GWT as well.

Speaking of great white trash trails, TU Boss, DH and teammate Coach Linda are probably shredding last laps (about now) on another known GWT at Behind-the-Rocks, UT en route to Solo SS national titles and top 3 overall solo men/women. Nice!

The official BP.net party line will most certainly be that it was thanks to all the early season bikepacking on the 2epic schedule.

Dave, look into the Pony Express route (at least until St Joe, MO). Some of us keep threatening to put on a mixed media race along it. The multi-horse record is under 8 days for 1700mi. Assailable solo, me thinks.

AAA? seriously?  lame

i s`pose you could look at it a couple ways: my red blinky rear light and my trusty p-tec eos headlights all run on AAAs. i now know if my light dies , i'll have working back-up batts. in the SPOT2.

I spoke with our trackleaders.com contact in marketing at SPOT and got a bit more info on SPOT IIs.

Delivery to the two major outlets like REI and West Marine is projected to be Nov.1. As SPOT have been off a bit in their projections b/f, I would consider this date their goal, but not for certain. There will be an upgrade plan. No details as of yet, but my guess is the upgrade program will also play second or third fiddle to the REIs of distribution.

SPOT II Battery life is expected to be about half what it was on the SPOT I. It now uses three AAAs to power it instead of two AAs.

Rumor is the transmission power is, indeed, markedly improved.

Hurt the ones you love: I also learned our demo fleet is likely to be one of the last to get upgraded. Hopefully by next Xpd MTB racing season we'll have SPOT IIs for demo.

hey there. thanks for speculating.

in a hotel in epharam. we actually elected to rip the descent to the valley floor b/c the skyline drive is pretty brutal. the climbing is ridiculous. the rugged nature of the opening day plus today's incessant ridge/saddle smackdowns have us foregoing the final segment of skyline and transferring down route to the freemont trail in order to keep to our schedule. we really wanted to say we rode the whole way but we get in the mog for the first time tomorrow. using maps only is slowing us a bit too. skyline drive views are incredible and there are GWT sections intermingled. lots of potential, DH.
-to bed

i second what dkirk says regarding the sleep monster known as DiMLO. circadian rhythm is a powerful (and beautiful) thing. i've always advised people re. divide racing to remove their tinted lenses and switch to clear an hour or so (sooner in woods) before the sun goes down.

when fatigue is extreme i have also found it helps my eyes to mount my lights lower (on the bike) so as to achieve lowest angle light/best relief imaging. staring directly into/across the splash of a helmet-mounted flood light (particularly if water vapor and/or airborne dust is up) causes reflections right back into the eyes, which tires them more quickly and doesn't lend to the shadows/other detail eyes need to remain stimulated, moving from object to object, between shallow and deep focus.

i agree with plesko on duration of catnaps that there is a point of diminishing returns unless you go for 90++ minutes.

Been watching this thing closely and am impressed with everyone out there. I have no idea what it's like to epic for 4-8 days straight but I know it cant be easy! I'm in awe and inspired!

Jesse,
You are ripe for this biggie-sized ride. As a former Canada cup winner, 24hrs of Steamboat victor and former Canon City, CO resident, how can you ignore this challenge another year? Get your bags on order and be the first Cannondale Factory rider on the 2010 startlist! I'll be the 2nd, but not the first. Help me out.
Matthew

Been quietly watching this since the start - in particular Nick Thelan and Dan Joseph.  Any other word from these two - it was mentioned Dan called in from Lake City.  Concerning that they are both off course and apparently bailed now, and appear to be separated with Nick further out on the road and Dan stationary.  Prior to this, they had stayed together.  Might be out of date Spot info, but ....Stay safe guys. BTW - Nick's trackleader info doesn't show his name anymore, nor does the (focus) work for his particular SPOT anymore.  Not sure what happened there - seemed to work up to yesterday early afternoon at least

sorry about the tracking weirdness there w/ nick & dan. at first i scratched them b/c they are clearly defaulting to the old route. then i reconsidered the scratch label for the time being b/c, as our software currently works, it removes them from the map. somehow my change back to active had a typo. i figured their families and friends may enjoy following them out - even in scratch mode. in the near future we will likely script a way to discern (by icon) between defaulted riders and active racers. anyway, nick's historical is back up. looks as though he's descending into the upper animas now.

The leaderboard shows him as scratch after Cochetopa pass and before Carson Saddle but I don't see anything on MTBCast or Joe's tweets.

trackleaders.com scratched him as once he got out to 114, he engaged his help button and kept riding towards 50. he has his own spot unit so we cannot call his emergency contact to double check. we assume he was signaling for a ride. once he arrived at hwy 50, he powered down his unit (9hrs ago). he's probably sleeping on cotton sheets tonight.

Be hard to see cairns point to point (or ridge to ridge) at night - so doubt they push too far.

yep. it highlights how strategic getting thru the new section before darkness of day 3.75 can/will be if you want to challenge the overall.

It appears that Jason is on forest service road headed toward silverton

yeah, he just linked up 520 with the back side of stony pass. i'm guessing he knows what he's doing. bummer.

Looks like he was on the right course taking the new route towards Cataract Ridge.  I have a feeling Jason got confused because the new route doesn't have any CT signs, only marked by cairns.  He probably thought he was on the wrong trail, turned around and took the old route which still has the CT signs.  Hope that's all it is and he's OK.

I looks like you might be right, what with all of his back and forth.

jason's backtracking certainly makes him appear lost but i'm not sure why he would drop 2k+ of elevation (due south) when the new section is described as remaining high (and due west). he also dropped off well shy of cataract lake where the new section is clearly described as diverging from the old CT (pole creek). The trail he dropped is defined and visible on the sat imagery but it's not the old CT. hmmm. Looks like Doug will be up on that same section soon. we'll see if he can nav. it in the dark.

Looks like he's off the trail.

Houston...(on lost trail creek)

The Split Chart is putting Own at a 3:16 finish time!

http://www.trackleaders.com/spot/ctr/tracker-ctr-spec.php

it's interesting to watch the projections chart estimates spike and fall based on avg speed. it's now at four days for owen and likely to spike again considering he will be required to do some night riding to make Junction creek by 6am. it's doable, though.

joining (er, forging) the sub-4 club would be the ultimate!

Pulled into the moment by SPOT: I was feeling for Owen a few minutes ago. He just crested one of the worst hike-a-bikes on the route. Sargents mesa and the ensuing ridge running puts you on the ropes, then the final steep pushers before the ripping descent to Lujan creek are just insult to injury. It's about to get hot for him too. Not much water in there either. He's a little under half way to Silverton, maybe?