Jack Brennan, race director of Tour of the Gila and proprietor of Gila Hike & Bike phoned me yesterday to say they had ordered a Welsh flag to fly at the shop in Mike's honor. I'm happy to see Mike stopped in this morn. If that flag could make it down to AW somehow, hoisting it above the port is just the kind of stunt our border guard friend Tim would have fun with.

Good idea? Does it rub people, purists, the wrong way?

David Haile--please PM me. We need to chat.

Why has mike disappeared from the leaderboard? That does not happen when your spot is not working for a while...

If you're referring to his absence from the live elevation plot + race flow, it's on account of this news ticker feed item: Mike Hall tracked off route -- at 05:23:33 PM (MDT) 06/27/13

I don't think that's a bad idea. As Jill mentioned most organized ultras have cutoffs to be considered a finisher. This race is certainly less organized than most, but there is a great community that has grown up around it that has tremendous value.

I personally prefer age groups (or some other creative category system) without a cutoff because I'd hate to see the Larry Hipskinds of the world discouraged from participating, but I understand your point of view. Establishing 25 days (or whatever number) as the honorable time for completing the TD is a fine idea.

As an aside, I just did the math on the miles per day requirements for my own edification and planning. I had no intention of restarting this debate in this thread and I think you and Scott do a great job.

Thank-you. To be clear, we are not talking about a time cutoff. We are simply exploring whether we can fairly define what is competitive across a broad range. Do we allow the 'curve-breakers', i.e outliers who achieve exceedingly high to define / reduce the curve by which all are graded? I rather think so. Just as I rather like only two TD categories: Open Men and Women, with subtle nods to SS and Tandem (if applicable). Equal scrutiny is congruous with equal opportunity.

Thanks for posting all of the pictures, Russ! Much appreciated.

Yes, it's really nice to see the happy faces of TD. Makes all the work involved feel justified / the right thing to do.

I see, so not the traveling Trackleader flag, but time splits for select locations, like the GDR used to do.  That would be awesome.  I remember Jon Billman's Outside article where he described getting into Steamboat 12 hours ahead of the cutoff.  It sounds like that carrot/stick definitely pushed him, as it did when he raced to the border and made it by something like 1/2 hour.

yes, traveling flags, just possibly averaged across all 25-day performances, not just 2012 riders. Maybe there's a 12-hr buffer period when those in jeopardy turn to faded blue, then default off. The fun part would be watching some fight their back onto the big boy / girl map. Again, not a cut off, just one map more elite than the other. If social media has changed the face of the event, then perhaps it can be used more pointedly to motivate riders.   

Is Mike Hall not taking the C. D. T. alternate route?  What the heck is the orange track line?

The Gila is closed from Beaverhead to Hwy 35. He's taking the Bursom Rd reroute.

I think this is an awesome idea Mathew.
It's "your" event so who cares if you get hell for it.
I fully agree about your "not to make TD their first ever bike race" comment.
Thanks for all of your's and Scott Morris efforts.
Cheers, Scott

No, no...not 'my' event...yeah, the 'Ride the Divide' effect will wear off eventually...our pleasure

It would add a level of interest BUT......it would make riders MORE aware of technology, so if a goal is to wean riders from outside web-checking, this would be counter-productive.  Also, how would that work for non-Grand Depart riders - more seem to be leaving a day or more earlier than the GD.

Nah...Time splits for 25-day or 27-day pace would be (manually) well-established ahead of time. Riders would know simply by where they slept each night where they stood / if they were in jeopardy of falling to 'Citizen' status.

~140 miles per day minimum to be "competitive" now, regardless of conditions. Possibly 150 if Stappler had stayed in to push things along. Interesting.

Again, as the record becomes more super human, the higher that scale / % climbs. Read here again. Falling records may only affect the men's 25-day standard marginally. Just as likely to lower a competitive standard are equipment improvements, obsessive amts of info on the route, and trail angels on every corner  . The best path to more 25-day performances is to convince people not to make TD their first ever bike race, convince them to leave the kitchen sink at home, and strongly encourage them to dally less in towns / motels / push to the edge of their ability (leave much less in the tank daily) as was intended by the originators of Divide racing.

An idea Scott M. and I have batted around for TD that would be purely about social pressure is staging a virtual fight to remain on the primary TD live race tracker by establishing that if you fall behind the 25 day flag (or 27 or whatever seems fair), then you fall off the primary tracker and get moved over to Trackleaders' GDMBR 'citizen' tracker, which is organized for all tourists who thru-riding the route with a SPOT tracker. Falling off the primary map doesn't mean one is time-cut or won't be a TD finisher, it's just a bit more incentive to, 'pedal damnit'. I'm sure we'd get hell for it, but hey...

For being a self supported, do it on your own no registration, no prize,  "race",  there sure are a lot of rules and regulations......

Stephen, when you come do a multi-day self-supported race, then you can talk to me about their rules . Rules per route mile, TD does OK in that department.

I think this is the sort of thing the event should encourage, as part of the trail evolution...There is a sign south of Whitefish telling GDR riders to camp and stop by.

That place is on the maps

The race should not discourage this sort of development if it is part of the trail. ACA can't be expected to keep track of them for them to be legitimate.  If a racer feels that violates his "purity", he can ride right on by.

The problem is, it's not really part of the trail, it's a product of the race and the higher profile of live tracking. It's 'situational angeling' not likely to benefit a late season ITT or the tourists who can really probably use the mental lift more than racers. You're right that riders need to interpret this level of purity on their own, but we'd still like to minimize the temptation to accept targeted aid and stop too often for such distractions. "Alone" is part of the challenge. We'd really like to see riders travel mostly unsupported between the towns with the exception of water resupply.

I know this is a slightly frivolous point, so no pompous rebukes please, but the anarchist in me would love to see a way for "Yukon" Krauss to end up on top of the General Classification if he is the only person to follow the full route this year.

If Ralph were to run the full route, he would be integrated into the historical GC, but by virtue of impending detours, probably not listed in the 'annual GC'. The `13 'annual GC', which is perhaps more aptly called the grand depart GC, will now be its own 'set' of times. A similar unique set of times occurred in grand departs of 2010 when Polvadera Mesa was closed, and for 2011's all-time record snow. In a good weather year, annual GC and historical GC are one and the same.

The general idea with a grand depart is to compare one's efforts to others under similar conditions. For this reason, back markers have been encouraged to run the same course as the front runners unless additional closures force additional detours (which is more likely than closures opening up). I think if I were not on record pace (as Ralph isn't), I would personally be deferential to my fellow grand departees and take the same course. Ralph is certainly welcome to ride whatever route is legally available to him, but if he doesn't do the same route as those ahead of him (we can only hope there's only one route), he won't be listed in the grand depart GC (which, if he rode the longer harder main route, would only be in fairness to his harder effort).

Unfortunately global weirding along the North American Cordillera has wreaked havoc on Divide racing objectives the past 5 years. Extreme microclimatology seems to have been more of the norm, making perfect conditions along a 3,000 mile stretch a tall order.

Galton pass and the lower flathead are fine. The south side of flathead pass, the part that is a running creek most of the time is gone

Thank-you, Serge for your help with feelers out on all this terrain. We can only hope the route will be doable in 2014.

Along that same line of thought, we have a friend who lives in Cora, WY right along the route. He didn't know about the race until it was too late to help. However, I've given some thought to developing him into being a Trail Angel for riders in the future. I shall assume that is OK. But - here's the question for the TDR 2013 group - If he doesn't want to help everyone but instead wants to pick and choose, is that OK since he is right next to the road?

Abso-freaking-lutely not OK. "Developing a trail angel..picking and choosing"? What do you think the answer to that would be? That kind of talk really gets my goat. Please tell this fellow enjoy & look but don't touch. The Place in Cora serves the racers just fine. Inconsistent trail angeling is what TD needs like a hole in the head. Perennial trail angels needs to be on the ACA maps, anyway.

Has Mike Hall got a pick up /ride from Antelope Wells to Phoenix arranged yet?  Pivot folks?

I spoke to Mike Hall this evening in order to give him the Gila reroute cues. He told me if he finishes by a certain deadline, the Pivot folks will come, if he doesn't meet that deadline, Lloyd Payne will be scooping him. So, He's covered...not that it's our concern. That's one of the challenges of the race for racers themselves to sort.

Mike also wanted me (and anyone else who cares) to know he is totally OK with the reroute and he's not gutted at all about the record. He said he missed the impetuous Craig provided and the closure had taken a bit of steam out of the mission, but all was OK. He believes what matters is he demonstrated what is possible, and that's enough for him. He's considering riding the Sapillo CDT singletrack backwards once he reaches Silver City if he can make a loop of it via Hwys 35 and 15. Pie Town is a high priority this year so he plans to hang back if necessary, to get the full experience, as in 2011 he missed it entirely.

My son, Peter Haile's bike has a broken seat stay. He's fixed it with JB Weld! He was at the bike shop in Steamboat so I hope he had someone look it over. Anyone along the route in CO who has an extra 29er frame to use for the duration of the race?  :-) Are there any rules about finishing on the same bike that you started with? I'd assume not. If I were there I'd bring him a bike.

There are no rules about borrowing a bike, however, it it is against the rules to fish for help via a forum. No broadcasting for help via MTB cast for BP.net. Sorry to be a party pooper but this disadvantages a pure ITTer riding the route without the profile of a grand depart rider. Help along the way is acceptable from bystanders only. Bystander is defined as a person who happens to witness a problem simply because they live along or are recreating along the route.

In a nutshell i am a huge fan of the race and racers however i will not respect anyrider that shows up in Banff by breaching any of the closers at this point. There is significant trail damage and calamity going on. While i am not part of the Admin it is time the Admin posts a re-route alternative that is going to be a big bad ass road timetrial from the boarder.  

Kucey out.
I will post more info as it becomes available

Thanks, Jason. No reroute need be posted b/c no TD Nobo riders are going (on route) beyond the CA border. Truly sorry for all your loss up there.
~Matthew

I've always been a fan of the original ethos of the race that Matt Lee describes so well, a sort of wilderness brevet in the pure sense of an individual achieving an honorable time on a self supported ride. In that paradigm other riders efforts are respected but the racing aspect is downplayed.

I've not downplayed the racing, only stated there should be no time cutoff, meaning, everyone should be allowed to claim an official finish time if they follow the rules.

I think the 1.5 x the record estimate was meant to define the honorable time for this event, but without categories that's like having Lance in his prime define the honorable time for a local 200k.

I'm not sure honorable is synonymous with 'competitive'. Any finisher who finishes by the rules posts an honorable time.

I think it's important TD remain without many categories. It's not intended to be a mainstream race like triathlons catering to 'age groupers'. If one doesn't want to be compared directly with the elite riders in a grand depart, then one should pick another time to ITT the route.

If Mike finishes in 14 days the "competitive" finish time will be 21 days for men.  Personally, I wish this statement would be eliminated from the rules.  It seems pretty meaningless to tell someone they are not competitive if they finish in 22 days and are in the top half of the field.

Below is a lengthy bit clipped from bikeraceinfo.com on time limits in grand tour racing. TD is loosely going for something along these lines in defining what is competitive. And because >20% of the annual TD field fails to meet what is considered competitive, enforcement of any cutoff is always suspended. As the TD records creep down, as per the below methods, the percentage of the record holders' times allowed the slower riders (for what is competitive) can / will rise, however not by margins that would ever be super inclusive of back-of-the-packers.

"Time Limit: To encourage vigorous riding the Tour imposes a cutoff time limit. If a racer does not finish a stage by that time limit, he is eliminated from the race. This prevents a racer's resting by riding leisurely one day and winning the next. The time limit is a percentage of the stage winner's time. Because it is the intention of the Tour to be fair, the rules are complex. On flat stages where the riders have less trouble staying with the peloton and the time gaps are smaller, the percentage added to the winners' time is smaller. On a flat stage it can be as little as 5% of the winner's time if the speed is less than 34 kilometers an hour. In the mountain stages it can be as high as 17% of the winner's time. The faster the race is run, the higher the percentage of the winner's time allowed the slower riders. The Tour has 6 sets of percentage time limits, each a sliding scale according to the type of stage (flat, rolling, mountain, time trial, etc.) and the stage's speed. If 20 percent of the peloton fails to finish within the time limit the rule can be suspended. Also riders who have unusual trouble can appeal to the commissaires for clemency. More than once Paul Sherwen, now a television racing commentator, was given special dispensation for riding courageously when he had suffered misfortune but bravely continued and yet finished outside the time limit."

Yeah - I'm gonna delete that post.  Not trying to start a fight.  If it's legal, then he SHOULD do it.

Tim

don't censor yourself. I understand how you feel. I never carried a phone. But I never wanted to tell anyone they couldn't. There's plenty of services on the route to do fine with or without. TD is no wilderness race.

Are you fixing him up a hot meal and a bath?  Seems like emailing a restaurant that you'll "be there" at a certain time is over the line.  Whatever.  I don't even care anymore.

Stamstad and Curiak phoned from pay phones along the trail to inquire about the status of a motel room or services ahead on the route. This activity is not prohibited provided it's done ON the race clock. The intro of smart phones has enabled this to be done by email, but it still takes time out of racing to do. I agree it almost seems unfair in comparison to someone who is not carrying a phone at all, but these are choices riders must make. Payphones don't exist anymore, so perpetuating the GDR mobile phone ban wouldn't exactly be fair either. Hall is carrying that extra weight, and it's a distraction too. Please discuss. The important thing is that a place like Como Depot commits to treating everyone equally, not simply Hall because he's the race leader.