CTR wheels, tires, rotors etc.

[jeremy11]

A couple weeks ago I rode from Carson saddle to Durango on the CT in two LONG days.  Besides lots of training, I'd also like to lighten up the bike a little if I ever try the whole beast.
The bike, (a Vassago Jabberwocky 2x9 geared with Manitou Tower Pro - 3.85 lb) fully loaded weight 46 pounds starting out, plus a smallish homebrewed hydration pack.  The bike itself weights right around 30 pounds - WWLT tires, Flow rims, Thudbuster, Brooks B17.... and a 19 oz Big Agnes air mattress.  I can drop a few pounds with ease, but am wondering how light other folks are going for rims, tires, and rotors.
I'm thinking Maxxis Icon EXO tires -16 oz   anybody else use these for real nasty rocks?
Kooka Bay custom air mattress, in the 7 oz range -12 oz
Thomson layback post -11 oz
WTB seat (if it works out???) -8 oz
Ritchey Pro 10d flat bars -3 oz??? (can't find weight specs on my old style easton EA70 risers)
homemade primaloft vest instead of BPL primaloft jacket (have both) (-5 oz) but we'll call this a wash since I really want to bring a stove and more palatable food.

I also have a lighter cassette ready to go on once this drivetrain dies.  -3 oz ?
I also will sew a lighter minimally featured frame bag once the order of WX20 shows up, that should save 5-9 oz off the current heavily featured VX42 frame pack.

weight savings ~= 50 oz
So this yields a handy savings of about 3 pounds of translationally accelerated mass, including one pound that is also rotationally accelerated.

How about these lighter options
Velocity Blunt SL front rim only -4 oz
or
Crest front rim only  -5 oz

Arches or Blunts just aren't worth the hassle or cost of (me) rebuilding my commuter front wheel for ~2 oz savings.

Ashima Airotor 185/160  -3 oz  said to also be a performance upgrade over roundagons on BB7s

I also might get a HBC 31 t chainring to replace the Blackspire 34t SS ring on there now.  This will have a small weight savings and better low end range for the CT. 
2x9 gearing, 34/20 (actiontec) and 11-34 in the back.

I weight 160-170 pounds, live and ride in Grand Junction, and also have intentions to try and thru ride the Kokopelli Trail and Tabeguache Trail this year.
Some of these upgrades may be foregone as I'm working on a second bachelors in Mechanical Engineering....

By backpacking base weight is around 8 pounds, including the 19 oz pad, but not including my alcohol stove and little hard anodized Al pot.



Thanks!

[bartspedden]

My FS bike weighs 25lbs without bike packing stuff on it. Wheels are Mavic Crosstrails. Tires are Specialized Captains 2.2s UST. Rotors are Shimano XT SM-RT81-M. I add another 15lbs to bike in a frame bag/saddle bag/bar bag for a 40lbs bike packing setup. My goal is to drop this by 5 lbs so that I'm only bring 10lbs of bike packing stuff.  There's a general rule that it costs $1000 to shed 1 lbs from your bike by switching parts.  The only place which isn't close is if you have really heavy tires to start with. I'm a little guy <150 lbs, so pushing a 40lbs is pretty draining.

I choose the Crosstrails because they are UST, stiff, and durable.  If I were to lighten them up I would consider a carbon set of AM hoops. Or maybe something from Stans. Carbon is big money, so unless I get an amazing sponsor it's unlikely that I'll go carbon. A guy can dream right???

Tires: For my riding style (read that "hard on stuff") I really like the UST casings and wider, fuller volume tires.  Thin sidewalls are just begging to leave you gimped up with a tire boot hobbling to the next town, and UST really solves this problem well.  Even if I was running tubes I would probably opt for UST tires because of how much tougher they are.  And I really like a wider tire, at least in the front, so that when I get tired I can just point my bars and plough through rock gardens with confidence instead of picking my way through with narrower tires. I typically use Maxxis tires and love them, but the Captains were really confidence inspiring. They have very low rolling resistance on hard pack and pavement. Reasonable traction on the uphill on wet rocks and roots. Excellent traction on the uphill in dry conditions. They stuck to everything on the downhill regardless of moisture.  And they are so high volume that even in the long rock garden that is sergeants mesa I felt confident in just ploughing through them in the dark.  The only place where they didn't do well was in moist sand/dirt/mud.  They had plenty of traction, but their rolling resistance was negatively impacted and slowed down here.  On the upside, they shed mud with aplomb! For me, light weight xc tires are the bomb for shorter races where I can reasonably walk back (love the crossmarks!).  Check out Jill's experience with lightweight tires on the CTR: http://allthingsepicwithjill.blogspot.com/2011/08/2011-colorado-trail-race-report.html - While it's not fun having heavier tires and lightweight tires really are tempting, it sure is awesome having confidence while ploughing through rock gardens and bombing down the jeep trails and drifting into every burn that you can find!

Rotors: I ran the shimano because the Mavic hubs are center lock compatible.  I won't do this again.  I had absolutely NO problems, but I'm running Hayes Stroker Grams and really should be running their rotors.  It comes down to safety for me.  At some point I started to realize that while I'm having a blast rolling down these Colorado mountains as fast as I can on my bike, I'm relying on precisely 2 things to keep me safe: 1) my tires; and 2) my brakes. My tires were bomb proof.  But I jeopardized my brake system.  Brake systems are designed and tested by engineers as a complete system.  Manufactures spend some serious energy making sure that the system they sell you and are I will keep use safe while dropping down a 3000' descent.  Manufactures use different width rotors and and different materials for their pads and different fluids in their lines, etc., etc.. By switching things up I realized that I might be introducing variables that the engineers never planned on and jeopardize the integrity of the overall braking system.  My point is this, if you want to switch up rotors check with your brake manufacturer first.  They know their product and maybe they've tested their brakes with other rotors and can point you in a preferred direction. Mismatching brake parts has been done by lots of folks safely, but after I spent some time thinking about it the risk just isn't worth it to me. These brakes literally keep me alive and take some pretty intense abuse.  Just think about how hot they get on a major descent that can last up to 30 minutes. The huge change in temperature that they go through impacts every aspect of their ability to stop, and so I'm not comfortable anymore mismatching parts of the system. Nough said, sorry for the rant.

Another note on rotors.  I think I'll be switching to a 170mm front rotor for any long backcountry trips where I'm adding weight via bags. My rear brake pads were about 70% used after the CTR, but my front pads were completely toast! In fact, I should of replaced them 2-3 days before I finished but since they were still stopping me I never thought to check in on them.  A big mistake that I won't make again. By moving to the 170mm rotor I'll gain increased braking power at a nominal weight increase. I would expect to see less wear on the pads too, but I'll have to test this to be sure.

Chainring: I run a 1x10 and love my 30T from Extratlite and love it.

For me (and my bank account) I'm saving weight on all the stuff I add to the bike. It's not free, but it is cheaper than most bike parts.

[jeremy11]

Good words, man.
I tend to agree with you on tires and rotors - that's why I'm already running the WWLT and roundagon 185/160 - riding a heavy bike is better than pushing a light bike.....
With a backpacking base weight of around 8 pounds, there's not much I can do there, I'll be sewing a lighter bag kit that could shave off up to a pound on the seat bag, frame bag, and bar bag, then I'd like to get a Kooka Bay air mattress (~7 oz) that will save ~12 oz off my 19 oz Big Agnes pad without skimping too much on comfort.  I could drop the thudbuster for CTR type stuff - after all it does nothing on hike a bikes and on downhills and save another 11 oz, then I'd also like to try another WTB saddle model since anything is lighter than a Brooks.....
also, saving a pound on tires with a sacrifice in performance and toughness saves more or less 1/2 % mass of the rider - loaded bike system.  worth it?  doubtful....

[joeydurango]

Rims, tires, rotors - not places I'd look to save weight on the CTR.  As you already mentioned, riding a heavy bike is better than pushing a light one. 

You can drop a lot of weight with XC-weenie tires, but that's also the easiest way to introduce mechanicals to a bombproof setup.  I prefer my tires to be a little chunky, I rode WTB's Bronson up front and Wolverine in the rear on the CTR and enjoyed a flat-free, traction-surplus ride.  I did slice the rear sidewall almost all the way through on Day 2 and only noticed that the tube was about to start bulging out when I happened to sit down and eat a sandwich facing that exact spot on the tire.  Booted it and didn't worry about it thereafter.

Rims - if you're smooth, you can get away with pretty light rims, but loaded riding adds a bit of "inherent klutz", especially when tired.  Unless they're really flimsy, though, your weight savings in the rim realm will probably just come at a long-term durability cost.  Lightweight rims don't last a long time.

Rotors - I've ridden various brands of brakes with various brands of rotors, mix-n-match, over the years.  As long as the diameter is the same, it mostly doesn't matter.  Thickness variables between rotors don't matter given how much pad wear brakes can compensate for.  Some things you'll definitely find to not work - XTR centerlock rotors with Juicy brakes, for example, unless you cut the tabs off the inner pad.  And I pretty much hate the idea of Stan's aluminum rotors, or the superlight Scrub rotors, etc.  Not something you want to trust for hundreds of miles in the backcountry.

In general I found that weight didn't matter nearly as much as I thought it might out on the CTR.  My setup was reasonably light - although heavier than yours - and my 26-pound, 1x9 (32x11-34), steel hardtail 29er did just fine.  After riding for 18 hours you tend not to think in grams any longer.  I think the bike world in general worries too much about tiny weight differences that are really easily outweighed by a very little extra fitness.  It may matter more in a two-hour XC race situation, but in my experience with both XC and endurance racing the ultra-low-weight advantage loses ground to fitness and durability quite quickly once the mileage goes up.

My biggest regret from the whole year-long obsession with the CTR?  Spending so much time beforehand worrying about gear, weight, and stuff that seems silly in retrospect when, once out there, it just felt like a prolonged version of what I do all the time.  It was awesome.  Nothing I cared about beforehand mattered while out there.  Simply be prepared, be prepared simply, and you'll enjoy it!

[bartspedden]

My biggest regret from the whole year-long obsession with the CTR?  Spending so much time beforehand worrying about gear, weight, and stuff that seems silly in retrospect when, once out there, it just felt like a prolonged version of what I do all the time.  It was awesome.  Nothing I cared about beforehand mattered while out there.  Simply be prepared, be prepared simply, and you'll enjoy it!

VERY well said man!

Unfortunately for me, I love all the hours my brain spends churning through the gear stuff  I'm still really far from committing to anything for next year, but I'm already 10s of hours into planning for the NEXT ultra. And minimizing weight for my camping/clothing is where I'm at now.  With a 25lbs bike, I'm not shedding weight without either compromising durability/safety or spending some big money on carbon frame/wheels/etc... So, dialing in my ideal camping/clothing setup is where I'm at.

[JCarr13]

Yeah, I agree with Joey. I stressed and stressed about what to carry and how I could make it lighter. In the end, I carried a small, lightweight tent and pretty light yet warm and dry sleeping gear. It worked well and made my ride more flexible. Grams didn't matter too much when out on the trail IMHO. But maybe I would have gone faster if I had a lighter setup or maybe I would have DNF'd because I was uncomfortable every night...
Being prepared mentally and physically is way more important that spending time shaving grams.

[bartspedden]

Warm and dry keeps the mental challenges within reach for me.  I was a little light on the "dry" aspect of my sleep kit and nearly dropped out after the 2nd night. The funny part is that it looks like I can drop weight by adding the right "drier" sleep set up.  Grams don't matter, but pounds do IMO. And shelping around wet gear that weighs pounds in the morning waiting for the sun to come out and dry stuff out is no bueno!

[jeremy11]

I'm well aware that "run what ya brung" and "build it bigger" are words to live by for things like this, where the performance benefits of heavier kit often outweigh the mass difference.  Considering that the rider-bike system would weigh around 200 lbs, a 2 pound difference changes the translational mass of the system by 1% - so bring the heavy reliable tires and the brooks saddle if you need too.

And the point is very well taken that rider training physically and mentally is the biggest issue by far.

However, there is an optimum in there somewhere on the weight vs performance scale, otherwise with this line of thinking we'd all be riding Lenz PBJ downhill 29ers before too long, or the other line of thinking...... we'd be on 14 lb SS cross bikes with 4.8349 lb of super ultra light camping gear strapped on in cuben fiber bags.
And so I seek to refine that optimum.  I just ordered a Kooka Bay custom pad at 8 oz will drop an easy 11 oz off the Big Agnes pad I've been lugging around, then I'll probably suck it up and swap the Thudbuster back to a Thomson for another 11 oz off.  It only works when you're sitting anyway.  Keep the big tires, big rims,..... but I'll drop that 22 oz at least and be grateful for the 2200 calories of extra food I can bring along for "free."

[bartspedden]

I'm right ontrack with your line of thinking Jeremy11!  There's the proverbial "perfect" kit for everyone, and each one is probably a little different.  I'm on the smaller side at 145, so maybe I can go with something a little "lighter" then a guy that's 200lbs. I'm also a warm sleeper, so maybe a 45 degree quilt is total luxury for me.  I think you're on the perfect path with analyzing you kit and tweaking things that work for you.  I try to change one or two things at a time so that things don't get too confusing for me.  I try to avoid the "Did the new tires give me more traction on the climb or was I producing more watts because of the new gear ratios?"  And that part that keeps me on my toes is that over the years my needs/wants have changed. Overall my endurance has improved substantially so when I work through "worse case scenarios" riding 30 miles a little cold and wet with the typical cold Colorado winds doesn't seem as bad as it did a couple years ago, so I'm fine less gear because I know I can get through it.  It looks like you know where you are comfortable cutting back!  Can't wait to watch your blue dot if you ever chose to do the race!