IGH Battle - Rohloff vs Shimano Alfine 11

[Area54]

I'm speccing 2 bikepacking bikes for a client, I need solid feedback from hard users of these hubs to help me make a decision on which hub to spec. Bikes are El Mariachis. Basically I want to hear the stories and experiences of both hubs, good and bad.

Thanks in advance 

[annoying crack]

Ok, this has my interest too, especially the alfine 11.
Area54, be sure to post some pics of those bikes when they are done.

[phil_rad]

I bought a used Rohloff hub about 18 months ago, it had 2500 km on it. I've put in 1500 km on it, it's not my main bike, I like to ride single speed. I did do a trans alp trip last year. At first it felt kind of sluggish and weird, shifting is not as snappy and quick as a derailleur setup. When down shifting on hills it takes some practice, cause unlike the normal derailleur you have to take pressure off the pedals, other wise the shifting becomes very difficult. When downshifting from 8Th to 7Th gear if you try and hammer it, it shifts for a split second into 14Th gear! But only as long as you have pressure on the pedals. When shifting up to a taller gear this is not an issue; you can hammer the pedals and it jumps right on the next gear. Once you get the hang of it's quirks it's great, no maintenance, no worries. Chain and sprocket lasts a long time; I'm still running the first chain and rings and no sign of serious wear.
Bottom line for me is; when I ride with gears then without a doubt - Rohloff. 

[pickupel]

I have gone with a Rohloff on the bike I put together for this years TD. I have mine built into a ti El Mariachi frame and the pairing is great — the cable-routing is not a hassle and the Rohloff specific 'alternator' dropouts are easy to setup and adjust. 

I've had similar experience to phil_rad with the Rohloff hub itself. It is definitely a different experience to using derailleur gears, especially if used to a well-tuned setup. The shifting improves with practice and experience, and the hub 'quietens down' after it beds-in (a sign of quality German engineering).

When choosing the spec for my TD bike I considered the Alfine 11 — it has nearly the gearing range of the Rohloff, while being much cheaper and coming at a lesser weight penalty. However, I work at a bike shop and around the time I was making my decision we had some feedback from two customers who were using Alfine equipped bikes to ride from South Africa back to the UK. They reported that both hubs had failed internally in Kenya, within 100 miles of each other. The fact that both hubs had failed, in the same conditions, so close to each other tells me that it was not a one-off failure — rather the hubs had been pushed beyond their intended limits.

Granted, the Alfines were being used in extreme conditions for a prolonged period of time, but I did not want to take the risk of a hub failure ruining my TD attempt — so I went with the Rohloff. For me the biggest factor was the fact that Rohloffs have been tested in all conditions over decades and have a proven track record.

[JRA]

Have you read the story of the three brothers who rode from Alaska to the tip of South America?  They used Rohloff hubs on their bikes.  I don't recall reading about any serious problems.

More info here:
http://boundsouth.org/gear/

[RossC]

I've seen nothing but bad from the alfine 11. There were 3 bought between myself and 2 other locals just after they were first released and they all died.

The seals on mine constantly leaked and i suspect shifting performance is dependent upon oil levels because it would only shift correctly after having the oil replaced and then it would start skipping around regardless of how it was tuned. I warrantied it and then sold the warranty replacement off and won't ever touch an alfine 11 again.

The other 2 local ones all had similar problems with seals. One was put in a moonlander and lasted about 2 months before pawls were broken internally. It also had a huge problem with sand forcing its way into the shift mechanism and a: changing the cable pull ratio and b: popping the rear cog off as sand packed in and levered against it.

The same rider now has a rohloff - it hasn't skipped a beat despite numerous salt water immersions etc. Don't use an alfine 11.

[pedalingnowhere]

I was looking into the Alfine 11 for a Krampus build, but I would love a Rohloff for this... seems the Alfine has had some issues over long hauls. We put about 3k miles on our Rohloffs on a pan-am trip (http://www.pedalingnowhere.com) and had no problems. We did some fairly rough off-road stuff in Costa Rica and Nicaragua as well.

[joeydurango]

To be fair, Shimano definitely is not recommending the Alfine series hubs for the type of use we're talking about here... I've put serious commuter miles over the last 5 years on my Alfine 8 with zero issues, and I have customers on 11s, once again for commuting, with no problems.  But I personally wouldn't use an Alfine for off-road or loaded touring use - just beyond the intended usage scope of the hubs.

For off-road/loaded touring IGH, Rohloff would be my choice, as it is designed with that usage in mind.

[zuren]

Forgive me for bringing back an old thread but this same question is rolling through my head.

I noticed that custom builder English Cycles spec-ed a Tour Divide racer with an Alfine 8 - http://www.englishcycles.com/custombikes/black-rainbow-divide-ride/.  With the feedback I'm seeing about the Shimano offerings, I find this surprising.  Is it still the general consensus that the Alfines should be reserved for commuters and any loaded, 29er mountain touring should be left to derailleurs or a Rohloff?

Thanks! 

[bmike-vt]

8 was used by a TD finisher in ... 2011?
a friend has one on his voodoo bikepacking rig and an older model on his necromancer.
and he's a big guy.
he keeps thinking he'll kill the thing off, but it keeps going strong.

[Area54]

I spoke to a Shimano engineer the other day at our annual product releases, he alluded to people not being mechanically sympathetic during gear changes - ie not backing off the torque a bit to effect a smooth gear change. Edges of the gears can get worn/broken off and munched into the mechanism.

They are dead easy to service too, but I worry about those big seals letting in contaminants in harsh environments.

[JonCox]

I used an Alfine 11 during the TD12 and it got me to end, albeit with some of the issues that have been highlighted here.

On returning the UK the hub failed and luckily my sympathetic bikeshop provided a replacement under warranty.  When I got my new hub I did some reflection and research, and concluded that the problems with the hub were my fault.  Primarily my the issues were that I had not changed the oil after the initial 300 miles, or eased off the hub when shifting.

With the new hub I changed the oil on schedule and stop pedalling completely during a shift and it has worked PERFECTLY for a year over some serious mileage through a miserable UK winter. 

I got my initial Alfine 11 only a few months before the TD12 and did not pay enough time bedding it in, learning how it operates and how to maintain it properly. When I returned I was convinced that they were a rubbish piece of kit, but 1 year on I am so impressed that I am considering a second Alfine 11 for my full suss trail bike.     

BOTTOM LINE:  I believe that almost of the issues associated with Alfine hubs are down to user error and that it is an excellent piece of kit.  This opinion is 10000 miles in the making.

[Reland]

I joined this forum just to say Thank You "JonCox" for the first completely honest post in the history of the Internet.

pickupel: The anecdote about the two hubs failing in Kenya doesn't necessarily suggest that all Alfine 11 hubs are ticking time bombs set with fuses of very similar lengths; it may suggest that the two people riding together in Kenya did the same wrong things to their respective hubs and destroyed them at roughly the same rate.

RossC: I don't think accumulated sand could possibly remove the cog from an Alfine hub or indeed a Nexus 3-speed or a Joytech single-speed coaster brake hub if the cog and lock ring were installed correctly. Have you ever installed and removed those things? If three hubs failed in the same local area, I wonder if they were all set up by the same mechanic or if they were all subjected to the same harsh conditions?

[Daytriker]

While my usage for IGH's is not quite the same as many here mine do get quite a lot of use.
I have had several Shimano Nexus hubs over the years using them on recumbent trikes. For
my own personal trike I was looking at the comparisons between the Alfine 11 & the Rohloff 14.
Since the big claim for Rohloffs is the 600% gear range I wanted as much gearing as possible.
Recumbent Trikes are slow on hills & I am old (Slower still.) What I discovered really surprised me.
With the Alfine 11 having a Gear Range of 408% it actually gives you a wider range than the Rohloff.
The reason for this is that Rohloff's 1st 3 gears are extremely low whereas the Alfine has one extra low
granny with the rest more or less spaced at 14% increases.
Put into Gear Inches using a 30/42/52 crank set & a 16 tooth rear cog this equates to:

For the Alfine 11 - 18.5 - 130.7 G.I.
For the Rohloff - 9.8 - 89.1 G.I.

It's not until you get into your 4th or 5th gear with the Rohloff that you actually get a useable low gear for road use & the high ratio is mediocre at best. I get the same high ratio with my Nexus 8 speed using the same size cog, crank set & wheels.
I can only conclude that the ratios chosen for the Alfine are better suited for road use & the Rohloff maybe for trails. This may be the reason some people have had failures with the Alfine stressing them on offroad hill climbing with gears that are better suited to higher speeds. By the way, this is the BEST ratio mix for the Rohloff I could find. Using a larger rear cog moves the ratios even lower. It's Alfine for me.

[Sparkyga]

Been on my Rohloff Troll for about 3 years now. Some MTB riding but mostly road riding in a fully loaded touring setup.

Pros:
- It doesn't break ever. Seriously reliable.
- Cheap to operate. Replace your sprockets/cogs every 10000 to 15000 km.
- Change gears when idle. Awesome in city start/stop traffic.
- Shifter cables last for years. Can change gears directly from the hub if you snap a cable.


Cons
- Slow loud and kinda heavy. You get use to it.
- hard to get people to build proper wheels around the hub. Not a big deal if your in a 1st world country but in 3rd world your in for some big headaches.
- pain in the butt to carry the oil/cleaning fluid if your doing 5000 km+ trips.

[bmike-vt]

daytriker you can't (aren't supposed) to use a 30t with a 16t on the Rohloff. And I wouldn't use it with a front dérailleur. You can change the big ring to little ring combo to dial in your low / high gear.

I'm looking forward to my Rohloff arriving. I'll be building it into a 29+ wheel for my Krampus. I'll use a 34t front and 16t rear.

[Daytriker]

I used the 16 tooth/30 tooth combination for illustration & to keep the comparison consistent with the other hubs. Since Rohloff recommends a 16/34 with a 26 inch wheel I don' think you would have any issues using the 16/30 combination unless you were beating the crap out of your equipment. Remember too that you would be spinning with the 30 tooth front & not hammering so using this combination for road use should be fine.

[bmike-vt]

It's not about hammering. It's about torque that the hub can take. I know people run out of spec ranges... But it's not recommended. If you want a better road gearing, just use a larger ring.

[Daytriker]

I think you should read about IGH's & their respective specs as well as torque. Since you will be running a 16 tooth cog on your 29 inch wheel you are already out of spec. These hubs are not that fragile & the gears on them are truck like compared to the others I evaluated.. It is my belief that Rohloff specs these hubs with the intention of not having any warranty issues from failures or abuse. An ounce of prevention etc. If my Shimano hubs can take running out of spec with care & maintenance I would feel very confident the Rohloffs will as well. I just don't prefer the low, low gearing the Rohloffs are set for. Changing to a larger chain ring will not solve the problem of too low gears since you have to change all three to keep within a 10-12 maximum ring size for the front derailleur
and then most likely will have to change to a different derailleur as well. Much simpler & easier to change just the rear cog. Since your usage may be different than mine maybe you need the 4 extra low gears on the Rohloff - I don't & prefer to have a much more usable range with the Shimano at half the cost.

[Briansong]

Great thread. It is of personal interest to me, I rode the TD this year and had many mechanical issues, most related to chain, sprocket and derailleur. The weather was the main culprit for the chain problems. I failed to complete the route due to ankle problems (Richmond Peak)

I am currently building my TD "redemption rig" I have most of the parts, just haven't decided upon which frame yet. I am either going with Spot Ti or a Vassago Ti.

To my point, I rode with Nat some. He was using a carbon frame with Rohloff. I was extremely impressed with the reliability and lack of maintenance. So, with a hub THAT reliable, isn't using a Gates Carbon drive just as important as making the leap to a IGH? Seems to me that just going to the Rohloff gets you about 85% of the way there.

Downside, less frames available for use with a belt.