Keep seat bag from swaying?

[Smithhammer]

I think it depends a lot on the goals of the trip, the length of the trip, the time of year, the terrain, etc. Sure, you can get away with a night or two out in mild weather with such a minimal set up, and it's great to go fast and light and still be able to "shred," if that's your goal.

But on a longer trip, where wet/cold weather is a real possibility, and a real shelter, a warm sleeping bag and extra layers are a necessity, along with at least several days worth of food, the capacity of a large seat bag is hard to so 'no' to. The question isn't "how tiny of a seat bag can I get away with?" so much as it's "which large-capacity seat bag will accomodate what I need, without adversely affecting the ride?" And that's where choosing a dual suspension bike with a dropper post may increase your "shred" factor, but it's also going to significantly limit your capacity on a longer trip. Like I said - it really just depends on what you're doing and where, and for how long.

Personally, the farther off the beaten track I am, the more I try to minimize mechanical complexity.

[dream4est]

I disagree Smithhammer. 13 straight triple crown races. Same dropper since 2010. Same minimal setup with no bag or pad and small or no seatbag or no backpack. Tour divide 2x not just trail races. FS bike. Dropper. All day. Did ok this last time even with a few errors. No large bag needed or wanted.

Edit- the only thing that limits capacity on longer trips is carrying too much gear and water. the future is light gear to move faster to carry less water and more night riding. big seat bags with too heavy a load handle horribly even in the tour divide.

[joeydurango]

Personally, the farther off the beaten track I am, the more I try to minimize mechanical complexity.

+1  I confess to having some trouble making one of the least complicated and failure-prone components on the bike (the seatpost) one of the most.  But that's just me, and, I guess, Smithhammer. 

[Adam Alphabet]

I think it depends a lot on the goals of the trip, the length of the trip, the time of year, the terrain, etc. Sure, you can get away with a night or two out in mild weather with such a minimal set up, and it's great to go fast and light and still be able to "shred," if that's your goal.

But on a longer trip, where wet/cold weather is a real possibility, and a real shelter, a warm sleeping bag and extra layers are a necessity, along with at least several days worth of food, the capacity of a large seat bag is hard to so 'no' to. The question isn't "how tiny of a seat bag can I get away with?" so much as it's "which large-capacity seat bag will accomodate what I need, without adversely affecting the ride?" And that's where choosing a dual suspension bike with a dropper post may increase your "shred" factor, but it's also going to significantly limit your capacity on a longer trip. Like I said - it really just depends on what you're doing and where, and for how long.

Personally, the farther off the beaten track I am, the more I try to minimize mechanical complexity.

I always say over time people find their preferences and set up accordingly. Experience, location, duration, weather and taking the time to analyze and refine your kit based on your preferences are all important variables.

This was my set up for 5 days solo in the Chilcotins in early July. An enjoyable trip with all the comforts I'd want out there.
*Full sleep/shelter kit good to below freezing and rain; pad, bivy, tarp
*Clothing layers for all expected inclement mountain environment weather; rain, cold, sustained wet, and beautiful sun!
*Full tools, spares, repairs. I sliced a sidewall scrambling. Sewed it up and saved my tubeless.
*Ability to boil water; ti pot, esbit stove. I like morning tea.
*5 days worth of food, no resupply option. Brought too much, easily could've got 7 days out of what I had.
*All bike bags made by me. The rest in the Osprey Talon 22.
*Most importantly though the capability to have fun enjoying the trails and off trails I was riding. Not just covering the ground military style A to B, that's boring for me.

I've been coming up here for years now and each time my kit gets more and more refined. Which allows space for more food, which means more days out.

Again each their own. Not trying to sway people's opinions but after years of doing this *to me* the conventional huge seat packs, huge bar roll that people tend to overstuff and poorly pack look cumbersome, like panniers and racks did to most bike packers a handful of years ago.
Best part about being a MYOGer is experimenting and bucking conventional wisdom.

[joeydurango]

Not trying to sway people's opinions...

I see what you did there, Adam... clever, clever.  Or is it just me? 

[Adam Alphabet]

I see what you did there, Adam... clever, clever.  Or is it just me? 

[Yogi the Barry]

If only Cuben fiber was cheaper... and I could find the time and a sewing machine to sew/glue some gear.
BTW, keep on "bucking"... 
-Barry

...snip...
*All bike bags made by me. ...snip...
Best part about being a MYOGer is experimenting and bucking conventional wisdom.

[dream4est]

My bags loaded for the long run from Silverton to Mt. Princeton. I made it with lots of food left. I could go a week easy. The seatbag weighs 6oz and holds nearly what the Pika does at full load. No stiffeners no seat post velcro. It works with no sway even in extreme riding conditions.

[Yogi the Barry]

Re: Bag weights
Getting off on an OT tangent here, but...
The weight of the bags really do matter. Call it the inherent overhead cost of carrying gear. Gotta carry more to carry more...
Weights for all the [unloaded] bags on my Moto-B hardtail listed below. Thanks to the spreadsheet, it hurts to do the math.
Not listed below, Osprey Manta [20 or 30 - usually the latter], which is another ~1550g unloaded.

Bar [Small Revelate] = 295g
Seat [custom Wheelright] = 235   
Gas tank [Rev] = 115   
Gerry [Rev] = 72
Frame [custom Nuke Sunrise] = 360   
Feeds [2ea - Rev] = 95 x 2 = 190
Total bags [not backpack] = ~1250g [~2.8 lbs]
Exact empty weight for my Manta 30, with empty 3L bladder, hose and quick-disconnects = 1610g
Weight of older and larger Revelate seat bag = 390
Weight of older and larger Revelate bar bag = 315

[Edited: Pulled the wrong values from the spreadsheet for total weight of bags. The 6.3# value was the total for all bike packs AND backpack. Above listed weights are now correct. Still almost 3# of bags on the bike.

[pro_out]

math check?something doesn't add up?

Re: Bag weights
Getting off on an OT tangent here, but...
The weight of the bags really do matter. Call it the inherent overhead cost of carrying gear. Gotta carry more to carry more...
Weights for all the [unloaded] bags on my Moto-B hardtail listed below. Thanks to the spreadsheet, it hurts to do the math.
Not listed below, Osprey Manta [20 or 30 - usually the latter], which is another ~1550g unloaded.

Bar [Small Revelate] = 295g
Seat [custom Wheelright] = 235   
Gas tank [Rev] = 115   
Gerry [Rev] = 72
Frame [custom Nuke Sunrise] = 360   
Feeds [2ea - Rev] = 95 x 2 = 190
Total bags [not backpack] = ~2850g [~6.3-lbs]

[sherpaxc]

I've gotta say, this is one of the more enjoyable discussions I've seen on here lately. 

I'm very interested to see a pic of the prototype seatbag that just uses the frame rails.  Interesting concept for sure.

[Adam Alphabet]

If only Cuben fiber was cheaper... and I could find the time and a sewing machine to sew/glue some gear.
BTW, keep on "bucking"... 
-Barry

Re: Bag weights
Getting off on an OT tangent here, but...
The weight of the bags really do matter. Call it the inherent overhead cost of carrying gear. Gotta carry more to carry more...
Weights for all the [unloaded] bags on my Moto-B hardtail listed below. Thanks to the spreadsheet, it hurts to do the math.
Not listed below, Osprey Manta [20 or 30 - usually the latter], which is another ~1550g unloaded.

Bar [Small Revelate] = 295g
Seat [custom Wheelright] = 235   
Gas tank [Rev] = 115   
Gerry [Rev] = 72
Frame [custom Nuke Sunrise] = 360   
Feeds [2ea - Rev] = 95 x 2 = 190
Total bags [not backpack] = ~2850g [~6.3-lbs]

Thanks Barry. I bought a bunch of Cuben when the CDN dollar was better. Now... I might as well try to make bags out of platinum!

You nailed it with bag weights. I always thought it was crazy to put a 16oz sleeping bag in a 13oz seat bag. I always thought it was possible to make a full usable bikepacking bag kit under a pound. This was a goal of mine in making my gear.
From the pic above here are the weights of the Cuben bags that I made:

Seat Bag: 76g (2.68oz)
Frame Bag: 66g (2.32oz)
Bar Roll: 88g (3.10oz)
Bar Pouch: 105g (3.70oz)
Total: 335g or 11.8oz

Then add the weight of desired backpack... For back packs though I've found lightest isn't always best as some bags 'carry' light and light bags carry lumpy and poorly distribute weight. The Osprey Talons are the gold standard (for what I've tried).

Ya I'm a nerd, but again, all that helps achieve a key goal of mine in bikepacking... Keeping my loaded bike handling as closely to how it does unloaded as possible. Trimming the fat is key in achieving that goal for me.

Sick Set up Mark!

[dream4est]

I don't want to show a close up of my bag. I want to sell it soon so I am reluctant to post real pics. I have of the first 2 models that had zipper openings not roll up ends. Same attach method. It works. No seat rail failures even when I put too much weight on bag in TD and messed up the rear compression strap up.

I will have it up for sale by end of year hopefully. It's probably the only bag I am going to sell
And I will make it custom as well for ppl with clearance issues.

Edit- my 5 bags in the pic above weigh about 17oz.
Backpack weighs 25oz with empty bladder (volt)

[Yogi the Barry]

Sorry for the mistake. I edited my post [Reply #28] with the bag weights. Individual bag weights were correct, but the total weight was wrong [it included my 30L Manta].
Distilled, the weight of the empty bags on the bike is almost 3#. Over three more on the back [empty] and all the packs add up to ~6# in my case.
From my simple addition mistake, hard to believe I once took calculus...

[Smithhammer]

I always say over time people find their preferences and set up accordingly. Experience, location, duration, weather and taking the time to analyze and refine your kit based on your preferences are all important variables....

Again each their own. Not trying to sway people's opinions but after years of doing this *to me* the conventional huge seat packs, huge bar roll that people tend to overstuff and poorly pack look cumbersome, like panniers and racks did to most bike packers a handful of years ago.
Best part about being a MYOGer is experimenting and bucking conventional wisdom.

Agreed on pretty much everything you said, AM. One of the most significant differences between your pictured setup and my usual kit is that I prefer to not carry a backpack as large as yours when I ride, if at all possible. And I'm guessing that, if you had to pack all of the contents of a 22L pack on the bike instead, your setup wouldn't look much different than mine. Again, it's all a matter of preference, and there is no "right" or "wrong" as far as I'm concerned.

I prefer to bikepack on the minimal side, but bikepacking for me isn't an exercise in trimming my kit down to the absolute, barest essentials anymore - I experimented with that long ago, and know firsthand the advantages and downsides. I definitely bring a few things with me these days that are far from "essential," because I'm out there to enjoy myself. And really, if I can presume to speak for all of us, isn't that what it's all about?

But getting back to the topic at hand, it's pretty simple - 1)some designs are more prone to swaying than others. 2) don't use a larger seat bag than you need to. 3) pack it properly to minimize swaying.  

[Adam Alphabet]

Agreed on pretty much everything you said, AM. One of the most significant differences between your pictured setup and my usual kit is that I prefer to not carry a backpack as large as yours when I ride, if at all possible. And I'm guessing that, if you had to pack all of the contents of a 22L pack on the bike instead, your setup wouldn't look much different than mine. Again, it's all a matter of preference, and there is no "right" or "wrong" as far as I'm concerned.

I prefer to bikepack on the minimal side, but bikepacking for me isn't an exercise in trimming my kit down to the absolute, barest essentials anymore - I experimented with that long ago, and know firsthand the advantages and downsides. I definitely bring a few things with me these days that are far from "essential," because I'm out there to enjoy myself. And really, if I can presume to speak for all of us, isn't that what it's all about?

But getting back to the topic at hand, it's pretty simple - 1)some designs are more prone to swaying than others. 2) don't use a larger seat bag than you need to. 3) pack it properly to minimize swaying. 

For that specific trip the pack was mostly full of this..... as the trip progressed I was riding with a lighter and lighter pack. Bike weight remained static.

It's the nature of the trips out there though. A great mix of off trail, route finding, single track, animal tracks, bike mountaineering if you want, wild rugged terrain, lots of hike a bike. It pushes classic single track touring ala AZT or CT a couple notches towards the Alaskan Adventure bikepacking side of things. Super fun and challenging.

I've gone up there numerous times, with different set ups, trying to optimize for duration, economy of effort and fun of course. On one trip I focused on trying to get as much as possible on the bike and had a small hydration bladder carrying only water, bear spray and a wind breaker, everything else loaded on the bike including food. It was terrible. So hard to push and lift the bike, it handled like a tank, not fun at all. So I adapted my set up for that specific terrain, type of trip, etc.. To get in the range of 5 days (food) and keep it enjoyable a pack is key.

I always prefer to ride without a pack and for many trips I don't ride with one but to optimize my set up for proper single track I'd rather have some in a pack and some on the bike. Plus I can't stand waggling seat bags and not getting behind the seat properly!

You're right, if you're not enjoying it, then what's the point. That's what it's all about for me and I safely assume most of us.

So yeah, in summary..... Seatbags.... Pack it Light (compressibles), Pack it tight (cinch those straps hard!) and use the smallest one you can get away with. hahah. 

[Smithhammer]

It's the nature of the trips out there though...

Exactly, and while I'd rather have the weight on the bike whenever possible, you're right - for some types of terrain, it's not necessarily what makes the most sense or works best. This is what makes conversations about 'bikepacking' difficult sometimes, and can lead to confusion - we're potentially talking about a whole spectrum of approaches to this thing, on quite different types of terrain, and different resulting gear choices. How I might pack for a several-hundred mile gravel tour is different than how I would pack for a multi-day singletrack trip (right down to the bike choice itself). For that reason, I think that when we state personal preferences, it's also important to place those preferences in some context. To return to the topic, I've done lots of trips where a larger seat bag was really no issue at all, but on some other types of trips, it definitely can be. There are few absolutes in any of these discussions.

[Adam Alphabet]

Exactly, and while I'd rather have the weight on the bike whenever possible, you're right - for some types of terrain, it's not necessarily what makes the most sense or works best. This is what makes conversations about 'bikepacking' difficult sometimes, and can lead to confusion - we're potentially talking about a whole spectrum of approaches to this thing, on quite different types of terrain, and different resulting gear choices. How I might pack for a several-hundred mile gravel tour is different than how I would pack for a multi-day singletrack trip (right down to the bike choice itself). For that reason, I think that when we state personal preferences, it's also important to place those preferences in some context. To return to the topic, I've done lots of trips where a larger seat bag was really no issue at all, but on some other types of trips, it definitely can be. There are few absolutes in any of these discussions.

Spot on. Such a wide spectrum from off-trail, multimodal transport (fatbikes,packrafts) to self supported RAAM type events and absolutely everything in between. No right or wrong way, just personal preferences.

[pro_out]

Glad this tread changed directions, for a while it seemed like preaching.

[Smithhammer]

Btw, Addy - looking at your gear list, and how minimal your bag config is, I'm seriously impressed.

....Same dropper since 2010. Same minimal setup with no bag or pad and small or no seatbag or no backpack...

To clarify - are you saying you brought no sleeping bag nor pad on any of those trips?