overnights question about going longer than this.

[abhemet]

I have now done three overnight bikepacking trips as of yesterday. The routes I have chosen and ridden are alot harder with the bikepacking gear. But they can be done as out back the same day with my bike, and my camel back and  I can ride the next day no problem. But when I did them with bikepacking gear and camped out and going home was tough. I'm trying to go step it up for the next time I go out so I can do two night 3 days. On the last three and my only bikepacking trips the next day I was having rough time getting 25 miles so I have been having to cut my route short and go back home not on the planned route. Here is what the routes basic profile 30 -50 miles with 4000 to 5000 climbing. Where am at you have to climb to get somewhere cool to camp. Is there some kind of progression before I try a two or three day bikepacking trip. The next day has been rough after the first day of riding. I try to ride six days a week 2 to 3hrs a session. This week I only did one 2hr session and decided to rest during week and not train because I knew I  was doing  two days of riding . I'm alright when I get up eat the next day and I'm good for the first 10 miles and after the 10 miles I'm ready to pack in. Is it like this for anybody else. Because I see alot people doing a couple hundred mile trips. I'm struggling to do a day 1 50 mile and 25 mile the next. Help

[Colorado Cool Breeze]

disclaimer: I am not a bikepacking trail racer. I bikepack for recreation.

What altitude are you riding at?
In Colorado some days 10 miles is my limit if it's all day climbing and hike a bike.  
If you're bike packing at altitude I'd cut your mileage estimates by 50 to 75% from what those
sealevel boys are doing and plan your trips around the mileage you are comfortable.
Remember it's the journey not the destination or number of miles.

If you're an ultra racer disregard everything I've said.

[abhemet]

Thanks I'm just doing it for fun too but I would like to go longer and not take half the day or the whole day doing it because I do it without gear on day trips. The last bikepacking trip was the 26th and 27th of oct. the route I did was from 1200 ft elevation to 5800 and alot of the climbing  was at 3800ft to 4800ft for 25 miles. The next day I was about 4800ft to 5000ft elevation for about 5  miles and we decide to call it quits and ascend another 17 miles  back to 1200ft untill we got home This just what I'm figuring from what I remembered. I like the idea of leaving my house and not loading up bike. The main thing about the second day  its the single track fun that I miss out on. Anyway here is garmin stuff if you want to look at it. Also for a heads up I'm Clydesdale of the larger variety not tall but I can hold my own. Most the people I ride with are about 100lbs lighter than me. Day 1 http://connect.garmin.com/activity/237633835  Day 2 http://connect.garmin.com/activity/237633820 anyway thanks for the input. here is some photos you like to see. I have wrote RR because I'm currently at work. http://www.facebook.com/album.php?fbid=461158960592733&id=100000958995763&aid=97247

[Colorado Cool Breeze]

Great pictures thanks for sharing them. Love the Garmin data. WOW those first 18 miles looks like a death march.
No wonder you had nothing left for anything else.
Now the way I would have approached that ride is to get my wife to drop me and my friends off at 5800ft or Lake Hemet.
Maybe setup a base camp some where along the way to dump the gear for some riding without a load.
Then with the help of gravity ride all the way home or something along those lines.

[Slim]

ABhemet:

Do I understand you correctly that you are saying you can do a certain ride as two day rides in a row, but when you bikepack the same kind of route you are totally spent the second day?
If so, I can only think of two variables that differ between a day ride and an overnight:

1: The extra weight
2: The sleep on the in between night. That would be my guess to be your issue.

1: Obviously any extra weight is going to make harder work going uphill, but even on flat and downhills it can make it harder because of the extra effort to handle your bike, or because you're taking slower lines and braking more due to lack of confidence in the handling of the loaded bike.

2: I often sleep worse when camping, and I find that if I am short on sleep, I have absolutely zero energy the next day, even though I might not feel sleepy because of the excitement of being outside.

What to do?
1: Reduce weight. Backpackinglight.com and Ultimate Hiker book by Andrew Skurka are your best bets to figure out how to drop weight.
2: Sleep longer. On my recent trip I went to bed at 8:30 pm and got up at 7am( there was only 11 hrs of daylight) . That way, even if you wake up a bit at night, you still get a reasonable  amount of sleep.
2: Use a different sleep set-up. Comfier sleeping pad, better pillow, earplugs, sleepmask, etc, whatever it takes. And no alcohol, although it makes you sleepy, you sleep less soundly.

The other option would be to deal with it, like CCBs suggestions. You could make sure you are going easy all the time. Use your granny gear for every climb, even if you could ride it faster. Walk instead of grinding it out at max power in the granny. It will use different muscles and keep you from going anaerobic on these steeper climbs. Plan shorter distances for each day of a bikepack than you would for a single day ride.

[abhemet]

it might be the sleep thing  I don't sleep that well out there. My setup is pretty comfy. We did get to bed pretty late also. The extra weight isn't that much more. last time I weighed my gear it was about 25lbs extra with the water. I had the lightest setup in our group. They didn't want to finish the route either. But if they choose too I would done it. Maybe its just having the option be able to cut it short. I think the heat had something to do with too. Its pretty warm here. Now that I think about it every time that I have been out its been at least 5 to 10 degree hotter the next day. The first day it was 68 for most ride maybe got up too 75 and then started to call down at the end of the ride. The next day it was 80 degrees by the time we broke camp and by the time were done it 90 degrees. The other two rides it was 85 to 95 degrees. Well its getting cooler here I will do more trips in the cooler weather. Maybe go very minmalist on gear. I'm sure I can take less. Thanks for your input.

[Slim]

Yeah, if the day rides were in cooler temps that might have made the difference too. Other than that, my money would be on the sleep issue.

[Done]

Long multi-day rides with backpacking gear require different tactics than you use with shorter day rides. Here are some things that I've learned:

1. Pace. Keeping your heart-rate down is crucial. Riding anaerobically, even for short bursts, will suck the life right out of you on all-day rides. Five minutes of full-out effort seems to consume about an hour's worth of lower-intensity energy. I try to keep my heart-rate around 65-75% of maximum, and never let it go above 85%.
2. Eat, eat, eat, repeat. A lot of people can get away with not eating very much on day rides. But on multi-day rides with gear, you need a lot more energy--especially for recovery at night. I try to eat 200-300 calories every hour that I'm riding. Mostly carbohydrates and some protein. Powerbars, dried fruit, jerky, bagels & Nutella, etc. At night, I try to eat a LOT before going to bed, somewhere around 1000 calories if I can. Adding in some fat and extra protein works well for me. You can't recover overnight without a belly full of food!
3. Drink, drink, drink, repeat. Especially when it's hot, I have a hard time drinking enough. I've found that Nuun tablets seem to help me stay hydrated. Again, just like eating, make sure that you drink a lot before going to bed. If I have to get up at least once at night to pee, I know that I'm reasonably hydrated.
4. Mornings. When you get up in the morning, start eating and drinking right away. Even if your stomach rebels a bit, try to get some calories and water down before you start riding. Then keep eating!
5. Cycles. On a multi-day ride, you're likely to have pretty drastic highs and lows. Savor the highs, and plow though the lows.  Never decide to bail during a low. If you feel like quitting, stop to eat, drink, and take in the scenery. Then get back on your bike and keep going!

FYI, I'm a racer. I've actually never bikepacked casually. But I hope that these suggestions might be helpful anyway. Riding is riding!

[AZTtripper]

I wasn't able to see your pics but I did view your track.

Riding out your door good on ya.

Riding up on trail also good on ya.

But isn't there any easier way up. Seems like your killing it on the first day.

On the AZT 300/750 we don't expect racers to ride up the trails on Mt Lemmon. Northbounders go up the highway and down on the trail, there's still lots of HAB on the way down. Southbounders would climb the dirt road on the backside and then use the trails that parallel the highway on the way down again lots of HAB.

Best of luck

Tim

[wahday]

I think TobyGadd's comments apply well to casual or race-oriented bikepacking. Its very sound advice! Its amazing, for example, how being even moderately dehydrated can drain you, especially waking up that way. I keep a close eye on my pee (not just to avoid getting it on me...) to gauge my hydration level. I'm surprised how even if I think I have had plenty to drink that I really haven't. I think about it as my blood getting thicker and therefore less able to bring energy to my muscles and remove the waste buildup.

And the calories are SO important. Its not just to keep going, but for recovery during the night.

I often tell people that are not familiar with bikepacking that I essentially "plod along like a little turtle." I think this analogy also applies to the idea of "slow and steady" which conserves energy for endurance distances tremendously.

[abhemet]

Thanks for all the good advice I'm going to try another way up soon this will be my 4th attempt at choosing a route to get up in that area. One of my goals is to do the AZT300 in April. I figure this is what these overnights are for to get more experience and the training and knowledge needed. With all the great people here on these forums I'm sure I will get there.  Also I have rode my road bike up Mt. lemmon before similar to the climbing I was doing on this last trip except it was dirt. Also I'm sure my weight is  big factor in my riding. another of my goals is to lose some weight. When I started mountain biking I was 350lbs now I'm 273lbs. I trying to get to 200lbs. in the next year. Hopefully before summer.

[Slim]

Your weight can not be issue, since it is the same for both day trips and bikepacking.

Perhaps I misread your original question. I thought you said you had no problem doing a certain ride as a day ride, then riding again the next day, yet when you did it as an overnight, you were beat on the second day. Is that correct?

Could you please rephrase your original question?

[abhemet]

yes that is correct. But doing this as day ride I'm not carrying 25 extra pounds. Over all is what I was talking about. I was thinking if I was 75 pounds lighter I might not be asking the question.

[Slim]

I'd say the opposite. If you weigh 100 lbs, with a 25 lbs bike, 25 lbs of packing gear is an extra 20% of work required to climb.
If you weigh 270 lbs, with a 30 lbs bike, 25lbs of gear only adds 8%!

So the heavier you are(with the same overnight gear) the smaller the difference in effort between a day trip and an overnight.

Therefore I stick with sleep as the only significant variable between your day and overnight trips.

Have fun!

[AZTtripper]

yes that is correct. But doing this as day ride I'm not carrying 25 extra pounds. Over all is what I was talking about. I was thinking if I was 75 pounds lighter I might not be asking the question.

When you say extra 25 pounds is that all on the bike?

How are you carrying, rack or just bags?

Any extra weight you can drop can only help IMO that goes for both you and the bike.

I have gained some extra weight in the last couple of years and I can feel it some. No doubt loosing some, if you have extra, will help. It's all weight that your muscles have to move.

The 300 in a reasonable amount of time is totally doable. Look at Mike Brislin, not a young kid to begin with, Mike was able to drop some weight and train (using Linda W's coaching plan) to finish the 300 in 6 days. In some ways that's more impressive then Kurt's ride across the state.

For my first 300 I rode almost 7 days a week for 6 months. Some days were just a short commute to work but one weekday and both weekends were long and hard. And once a month I did something over the top for a full burn. The 90 mile last day still killed me.

I gave myself an extra day in 2010 I had trained less but still came out fine. The 5-6 day pace is doable if you work up to it. Go as light as possible with a balanced load and good walking shoes. Just make sure your rides are at least 5-10 percent Hike a Bike you'll need those walking muscles as well.

[abhemet]

its on the bike and me. I got a sling with a pocket in the front with my tent 24oz, sleeping pad, carbon poles, and ti stakes. a jahad triangle bag with tools and stuff. Small top tube bag and feed bag with 32oz water bottle. Seatbag carry's stove, cooking pan , sleeping bag, rain gear, pillow, fuel some clothes. Backpack 100oz bladder, water purifier, food, water carrying bag some more clothes jacket, camp shoes. Extra 32 water bottle. I'm working on getting a bigger frame bag so I can put the stuff in my bag in that. I'm still working on getting less weight. Oh alos anything cage with water bottle on the lefty fork. Here some pics some of the stuff has changed like the tent and shoes. http://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.401365863238710.83442.100000958995763&type=1&l=bfe7633759 but where I was bikepacking I had no access to stores. It seems like in the az routes it might be easier to go off the route and hit some convenience stores. Like said I 'm still learning haven't been with experienced bikepackers. So I'm doing this from what I have read here and on the net. Also here is some pics from last one time out. Hopefully you can see them. I posted them early in this topic. But somebody said they couldn't be see them. anyway here they are http://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.461158960592733.97247.100000958995763&type=1&l=c97a1fdaf6

  

[fastmtnbiker33w]

Take a nap when you start to feel sleepy. If you aren't racing, what's the hurry? 

I never go to sleep without a full camelbak and I plan my rides so I will be near water sometime after I eat breakfast.  I figure I should drink at least 50 oz of water from the time I sack out to the time I'm done with breakfast, so finding water should be a priority.  Water anxiety keeps me from sleeping well.

[abhemet]

No hurry just time constants. Maybe if I was by myself it wouldn't be problem. But on this last trip I had three other people with me and they wanted to be back at certain time. I haven't been brave unuf to go solo yet. I'm working up to it.

[abhemet]

AZTtripper I started doing light training in September and in October I started a 16 week  training program to be able to 100 miles on mtb under 12 hrs by Jan. If that goes well and I can ride 100 miles in day in reasonable time on mtb. I plan doing the LW coaching plan for the AZ 300. So I'm riding. But its alot time in the saddle and I work a full time job so for the last couple month I have been having 18 to 20hr days lucky I don't sleep that much do to accident I was in. But training has helped with that.

[AZTtripper]

Ok so I can see the pics now.

First off no tools you wouldn't carry on a day ride.

Second every little bit adds up. Drop as much weight as you can. Then the extra food won't be so bad.

Maybe replace the tent poles with string, or better yet a tarp. Trust me it's all about light weight.

I have in the past carried all of the what if tools, and ended up using some of them because of all of the weight I was carrying. When I went lighter fewer things broke.

You can do a lot with Zip Ties and Duck Tape.