Quantities of food

[cccniuk]

I have recently done a long hard trail ride in scotland through an isolated area, trying to figure a decent route for a trip next year. So I took all my food with me, as when I would be hitting populated areas shops would be closed. I had also had someone drop food off halfwayish as well. So I would not be overladened. I had never done full four days bikepacking with three nights under the stars (rainclouds). So I was pretty generous with my food portions. The first day I neglected my body and ended up having to force food into me late at night,  knowing it would benefit me the next day. same the second day. I think I was focusing on route finding and keeping my pace up. I can honestly say the first two days I never felt particularly hungry. When I got my stash at the very end of the second day things changed. I had constant hunger. Stupid thoughts about food. Cravings galore and shopping lists for when I found a shop. It actually started to affect my ability to concentrate on my route and pacing. Thankfully the second half of the route was on familiar terrain, which allowed me to graze and drink alot more. But my appetite was unbelievable.  Constant eating by the third night I realised I would have to extend my sleep and wait untill the shops opened in fort william. In the supermarket I could not figure out what I would like, this could be due to the supermarket brand being different to the one I usually go to. Eventually I purched plenty. And even had a few bacon rolls in a cafe. Rolled out and completed.

So I consider the trip very successful. I got to map a route from one side of Scotland to the other. I had a couple of nights out to test some gear. Re learn old skills with a map. Learn new ones with a gps etc etc. But the one thing I cannot get my head round is the amount of food I consumed. Yes I had the pedal down pretty hard at times but it was mostly a relaxing tootle along, with the maps out. 
The food quantity was ridiculous. But I did realise this was something I would almost me testing before I left. I had a good mix of foods that I liked. And could always satisfy myself. And food was always available as I never rationed my self. Due to shops being avaliable a few miles off route if needed.
 I would almost say my eating brakes on days three and four slowed me down as I was eating every hour or so.

This is the calories I recon I consumed.
The journey home is accurate as I have the wrappers to prove it!

Day one 16 hours riding 4000 calories
Day two 18 hour 5000.
Day three 17 hours 8000.
Day four 8hours 7000.
Day four drive home 4 hours. 3 liters of coke. 4 apples. 4 sausage rolls, 1 litre of milkshake(banana), large big mac meal & chicken legend meal.

so my question is to people who race multi day events. Does the above sound familiar.
What quantity of food would you eat on day three onwards.
Is it sheer quantity at meal times I should be stuffing in, or do people graze constantly, what contributes to faster travel.
What are your eating routines after a couple of days.
Do you think as I do more back to back days my stomach will get used to it, as I probably dont NEED quite as much food.
Anyone with experience I would glad to hear from.

Thanks

Chris

Ps. Water was never a problem. Ever.

[trebor]

I have what I'd call a "humming bird" metabolic rate. I eat 4,000-5,000 calories per day on a "normal" day and can easily take in 7,000 - 9,000 on the days of a multi-day ride. Unless it's hot, there is generally not enough food available to meet my need and I can find myself way-WAY in caloric debt 5 or 6 days into a ride. I get sluggish, grumpy, and can't ever good food out of my head. When it's hot, I can't eat - I suspect others feel the same.

What I can't do is offer you an answer to your underlying questions about how to best manage it... still trying to get it solved myself. Moreover we each likely are different enough that there isn't a universal answer to solve the issue. Constant grazing seems the answer, but on technical terrain it isn't always possible.

What doesn't work in my experience is eating 3 full size meals at a restaurant thinking you can make up for lost calories... usually are very sluggish while you digest and as soon as your gut empties, your starving again.

[cccniuk]

Thanks for the reply trebor. The cravings and day dreaming about food is not something I have not experienced before. And i do agree that grazing on technical terrain is difficult. I supose what I am finding out is all part of the transition from some who does stage races and marathons on technical food ie gels and shot blocks, to non technical/proper food bikepacking. On a massive positive. I had no mouth problems.  No sore mouth, no ulcers or canker sores. No splitting lips from the gel edges etc. And no diarrhea from mixing my drink powers wrong!

[windowace]

When I am planning food for multiple days on the bike I try to apply some rules of digestion.  So this is my understanding. During a day of riding like your 16 hr day you burn about 450 calories per hr over all 16 hrs assuming you are actually riding most of the time, and you burn about 100/hr when sleeping/resting. So over 24 hrs you burn about 8000 cal ((450 x 16) + (8 x 100)) = .  So you might think you need to eat 8000 cal a day to maintain.  Which is correct in a sense but not really necessary.  First, my understanding is that your body can only process about 275/cal per hr through your stomach. So it doesn't really do you much good to take in / carry more than 6600 cals per day (275 x 24hrs).  It actually can be negative.  Undigested food sits in your stomach, increasing the chance of stomach distress (nausea). Additionally, your body can/will convert stored fat to energy when your stomach can't (higher levels of activity) or won't (no food in it to process) keep up. "Keeping even" caloricly should not be necessary as long as you don't mind losing some body weight.  To keep pack weight down, but to stay energized I try to take in about 5000-6000 cal a day and then let my body convert fat for the remainder.  The bonuses are you can carry less food on the bike and you get lighter as you ride.  All these numbers are 'abouts', they depend on your body weight, exertion level, base metabolism etc.  As far as taking in the calories i think/feel smaller amounts more often(250ish/hr) is generally better than a lot all at once.  I try and save that for dinner time before going to bed (5 hrs sleep = 1375 calories).  Most important is to just eat, and try provide your body with a reasonable balance of carbs/fat/protein(50%/30/20) your body digests carbs most easily but fat carries more calories by weight and you need protein for muscle recovery).  This also assumes you are adequately hydrated.  Just some things to consider.  Cheers!

[AlasdairMc]

I went through about 6000 a day on the Highland Trail Race. Flapjacks were my food of choice, grazing my way through them. Every shop and petrol station in Scotland will sell some variety of them, some better than others. Get a feedbag for your stem/handlebar so you don't have to stop as much, and when you do stop maximise the stops (e.g. loo break, put on jacket, eat, adjust anything etc).

What was your route as I'm always interested in trips around Scotland? Considering an entry into next year's HTR550?

Edit: I lost about half a stone over the week though, so perhaps that wasn't enough food but I was eating for two before it in preparation.

[alpinum]

Day one 16 hours riding 4000 calories
Day two 18 hour 5000.
Day three 17 hours 8000.
Day four 8hours 7000.
Day four drive home 4 hours. 3 liters of coke. 4 apples. 4 sausage rolls, 1 litre of milkshake(banana), large big mac meal & chicken legend meal.

so my question is to people who race multi day events. Does the above sound familiar.
What quantity of food would you eat on day three onwards.
Is it sheer quantity at meal times I should be stuffing in, or do people graze constantly, what contributes to faster travel.
What are your eating routines after a couple of days.
Do you think as I do more back to back days my stomach will get used to it, as I probably dont NEED quite as much food.
Anyone with experience I would glad to hear from.

I can very much realate to your kcal intake.
I try to get a decent breakfast (in autonomy 1000 kcal), then it's snacks about every 2-3 h. Mostly early afternoon I stop for crackers, cheese, meat (in autonomy) or rolls, paninis etc. (eg. UK), then back to snacks (mostly clifbars, some nuts, mars etc) and a decent meal and desert for supper (mostly >1200 kcal). I once had to stop at Garve for supper and nearly fell asleep slowly climbing back to the hills. In such moments I try to really slow down myself for an hour or two. I believe my stomach can start digesting while I'm still moving. Sounds like c**p, but I believe in it.
In technical terrain I feed on gel blocks and gels. I wound want to feed on those on a regular basis, but if you need to focus on the terrain and need food gels and the like are a good option.

It's slightly different on longer trips in autonomy. It's simply not going to cut it if you need to carry 8000 kcal/d, with mod'ed porridge, bars, meat, cheese, crackers and a big ration of freeze dried food + desert this would mean carrying 1400-1800 g/d, so I carry about 3000-4000 kcal/d where there's no option to supplement, my body will have to burn some fat deposits and meaning to slow down (even more, ha!) a bit. The kcal density is a tough one. Like windowace pointed out in his great post, a good balance in ch, proteins and fats is important. I can remember trying a Wales C2C in rotten weather. On day 3 I ran out of "my specials" (clif stuff) and was feeding on Flapjack until I got to the point where I couldn't stand sweets any more (although I love sweets). I should've mixed it up with nuts. Lesson learned.

You could teach the body to burn fat more efficiently (Ketosis), what would be a good thing for bikepacking races. Unfortunately this won't rock your boat if you've got a sweet tooth 

What I learned not too long ago is that I'm actually better off packing food per distance, not strictly per day.

[cccniuk]

I went through about 6000 a day on the Highland Trail Race. Flapjacks were my food of choice, grazing my way through them. Every shop and petrol station in Scotland will sell some variety of them, some better than others. Get a feedbag for your stem/handlebar so you don't have to stop as much, and when you do stop maximise the stops (e.g. loo break, put on jacket, eat, adjust anything etc).

What was your route as I'm always interested in trips around Scotland? Considering an entry into next year's HTR550?

Edit: I lost about half a stone over the week though, so perhaps that wasn't enough food but I was eating for two before it in preparation.

Was figuring a decent off rd route from east coast to west. I have been looking at 'the crossing' http://www.ratracecrossing.com
Thinking that the route would be fun. But I have gone off the stage race format. Sort of.
I do enjoy them. But I find I am waiting about for most of the day. I like the route, but would like to do the route in one sitting or maybe with a kip somewhere.
Then I got thinking I would love to lay down a route and post a decent time on   http://www.selfsupporteduk.net
But a scottish route. I got a guide book that does a west to east and just reversed it. From arbroth to ardnamurchan light house. The scout took so long as it was into a steady headwind. The obvious way to do the route is west to east. But for me logistically east to west worked.

As for the ht550 I would love to do it. And its probably easier to say this on a pretty anonymous forum than to my mates. I dont have the confidence to do it racing others, or something. Wheather it a doubt about my mechanical skills my navigation or fitness etc I look at the route and think I wonder if 'I could', not 'it long and hard but doable'. I am very aware the ht is not something to be taken lightly. Hopefully doing some smaller things will build my confidence. However I might just jump on in and play mind games with myself and say its practice for 2016!

 I would like to do the cairngorm loop and am kind of focused on it. Whw double. And at some point west to east. These will hopefully take me out of my comfort zone. If you or anyone want to have a go east to west I will post the gpx to my drop box.

Alistair if your looking at a route and want to buddy up send me a message.



Cheers

Chris

[AlasdairMc]

I too have gone off the Rat Race type things. I did the Edinburgh one a couple of times, and other local ARs in the past, but the whole thing just seemed very 'corporate' and about getting the t-shirt as opposed to being a proper adventure.

You've chosen well in the Cairngorms Loop. I've done it once as an ITT in July last year (to prove to myself that I could manage a decent length route post-quitting the HTR430) and then with the group start this year which was great in getting my confidence up for the HTR550. I tried it again in August with a mate, but got rained off on the second day so had to bail as a stream became an impassible torrent. This was the week before Bob Scott's bothy was waist deep in water.

I'd strongly recommend the HTR550 as being the best bikepacking you can do in Scotland, if not the UK. It took me two attempts to finish it, but it really came down to a combination of luck, good weather, being downright stubborn and riding my bike a hell of a lot in the months leading up to it.
Relating the experience back to your original post, I became very attuned to how my body was feeling and reacting to food, water and tiredness. If I started feeling any negative thoughts, then eating some food and waiting half an hour pulled me out of it.

As for the WHW Double - also on my bucket list. The record stands at 38hrs unsupported, which is taunting me to give it a shot...

Are you on the bearbones bikepacking forum?

[cccniuk]

Alistair. Not on bear bones. Was thinking of doing a ride of theirs.

Whw double is on for me next year. Must admit to doing two runs at it this summer in preparation. Early start, getting the 8pm train back. Probably my favourite longish pedal. Was hoping have a go at the double but chose to do east west. More to do with filling five days than two.

As for ht550 you have really got me thinking!