Question about vests

[sherpaxc]

I thought about posting this on backpackinglight but this audience will help more for the intendend use.  I'm not sure what vest I should get.  Either the Patagonia Down Sweater Vest or the Micropuff.  I love the use of down but worry about the fragility of a down vest.  It wouldn't be for riding, mainly for around camp and to sleep in. 

Any experience with these?

[Pivvay]

I have the old snap style Micropuff vest and it weighs in under 6oz. I've beaten it up pretty good and love it. The high collar really keeps you warm. I took it on the TD and was always soooo happy to put it on. The only thing better would have been the full jacket that Kurt kept putting on, haha. But I didn't envy his backpack.

Down clothing is pretty durable, esp for just sleep/camp wear and it's usually lighter/warmer for the same weight. If you think you might ride in it though, you have to be extra careful with it. A hole in synthetic stuff is patched with duct tape. You can do the same with down but only if the feathers don't fly out first!

[sherpaxc]

Did you/have you ever needed to ride in your vest on the CTR or TD?  I'm buying this mainly for summer adventuring up in your neck of the woods.

I know all about duct taping a down sleeping bag.  1st night in it (10 years ago) and I put a burn hole in it.  I couldn't figure out where all the feathers were coming from (I was a total noob) and finally realized it was my sleeping bag.  DOH!

[Pivvay]

Hehe I once snagged my down bag on a fence packing up in the morning. Doh!

I have ridden in my vest on the TD. I didn't carry it last CTR but if I had I'm sure I would have worn it. Usually it's first thing in the morning or descending at night when my marginal clothes really need the vest to help keep my core warm and my extension everything else tolerable(ly cold).

[sherpaxc]

Then that leads me to my next question...Down or synthetic?  It's gonna be the Patagonia because I have a chance to get one at a steep discount.

I know all the pro's and con's to each, but not necessarily for bikepacking. 

For example, if I bring the vest I wouldn't need to pack a cycling vest (something I almost always have).  But I don't want to ride in the down vest for fear of wetting it through.

[Pivvay]

My gut leads synthetic to make it more versatile. If you're carrying it and can't wear it whenever you're cold then it's dead weight.

I know you're probably getting a great price but for the weight of either option you can get a full hooded synthetic jacket. Just have to throw that out there. My Bozeman Mountain works jacket is 9.4oz and their vests are more or less the same as the old style patagonia. You ditch the pockets and zippers to save weight. You'd have to throw out a WTB ad on backpackinglight I think to find one but they're around. Also the old micropuff pullovers weigh in at ~10oz.

[sherpaxc]

I've got a full synthetic jacket that is right at a pound.  It's a bit overkill really.  I've brought it on a few bikepacking trips and it's always the bulkiest piece of gear I have.  I'm thinking the vest with the right layering system will get the same job done for less weight and a lot less bulk.  Take a look of what my system is looking like and give me your thoughts...

I wear a ss/wool jersey with arm/knee warmers.
bibs

I'd bring a...
Marmot wind jacket (without liner)
ls/wool baselayer
vest
Not sure on the rain jacket but I'd have one.  that is my next piece of the puzzle I'm trying to figure out.  One step at a time I guess.
With this set-up I have a lot of versatility.  I just don't have any real world experience with it (the vest and wind jacket, both are new purchases).

[Pivvay]

The wind jacket is one more layer than I've had on top and the wool baselayer is slightly warm than the cap1 i usually bring. Oh and I don't have arm warmers. With the vest and that stuff I'd be good on top into the 20s but I'd be cold for sure. The wind jacket will be really useful.

On bottom I'm assuming you'll have rain pants or something? With shorts, knee warmers and rain knickers I've been okay on bottom into the 20s but again I was chilly. Long socks like JP and T-race had to cover the lower legs seem like a great idea but I still just might start carrying leg warmers over knee warmers.

I wasn't suggesting the vest was a bad idea over a jacket, just that neither current patagonia one is quite the lightest or smallest option since they're full zip and have pockets. Also FWIW, if you know the small yellow stuff sack the Thermolite (not heatsheets) bivy comes in? I can stuff the 9 ounce hooded BMW jacket into that. The old micropuff goes in there easily with room to spare.

It's hard to get a setup that works from upper 20s to almost 100 deg with the minimum number of pieces huh?

[sherpaxc]

Ok, thanks for the help.  I think I'm leaning towards the Micropuff.  I'm basically reworking all my old gear and going from lightweight, to UL.  I'm not core enough to do SUL.  I just can't give up the hammock!

BTW, Swiftwick has some new 7's out that work great as a stand alone or combined with knee warmers (which gives full leg protection).  I've been using them lately and am really happy with the set up.

Only reason I'm going with Patagonia is because I can get an order in at below wholesale.  Hard not to pass up that offer...If only they were WM...

[Pivvay]

I'll have to check out the swiftwicks.

Patagonia stuff is great. I've got a number of their pieces and have always been happy with them. They cycle with superlight stuff and then get a bit heavier at times but for most people they're always probably light enough.

[DaveC]

I'd go synthetic.  The lighter Patagonia down doesn't have much loft to loose, and when sweat wicks into the down (which it will, especially under a pack) you loose loft and warmth very fast.

I have a 5 oz Primaloft pullover vest I made from a thru-hiker.com kit last fall.  It's a great emergency layer that stays in my pack all the time, especially this time of year.

[Slim]

I would also say for a thin vest in a lightweight (few other pieces) system, synthetic is probably the way to go, since you can then bike in it. There is so little insulation in a thin vest that even if the down is quite a bit lighter it is not that big of and overall weight gain. For example The Montbell alpine light list under 3 oz (90g) of fill. So if the synthetic insulation weighs twice as much you are only gaining 90 g. The two Pata pieces differ slightly more than that, part of which is a slightly heavier shell fabric. I would suspect the synthetic might even be a touch warmer therefore. One benefit to the synthetic is that the insulation stays in place better and doesn't compress as much, leading to warmer shoulders. If you want to bike in it consider getting a size big enough that you can put it on backwards and sew some velcro to it and your pack so it provides a quick windbreak on descents without overheating you or having to remove your pack.

[wdlandparker]

if you want a good vest to ride in the ibex shak wool vest is bomber, but if you want a vest for just around camp on the cheap lands end makes a decent one for ~$25.

[JayP]

You might give this a thought  http://www.montbell.us/products/disp.php?cat_id=70&p_id=2301135 , a short sleeve jacket, it has worked for me in the TD and the Ultra Sport. Very light and warm for what it is in wieght, very compressable too.

[Marshal]

ditto on the montbell, I have been using their down sleeveless vest for several yrs, it's a great 'layer' under my rain jacket and pack so small it is always in my pack in the winter time, but mostly I use it for sleeping

[Pivvay]

That ultralight tshirt JP showed is slick, as is the full down hooded parka that weighs like 6 or 7oz. If one of my nice pieces dies, those are on my short list of upgrades.

[mattinaustin]

A little off topic from your original question, and I am still getting my bikepacking set up dialed in, but here is my experience...  I really like my BobbyJ eVent jacket for both wind and rain. eVent breathes so well.  No hood so I also take a helmet cover (very small packed).  With the jacket on, an Ibex sleeveless jersey as my base layer, a regular synthetic jersey over that and thermal arm warmers my midsection is warm and comfortable to about 30 degrees or a bit less if its not crazy windy.  But I also have a polypro balaclava and skull cap on the head, and can always add the helmet cover if needed.  If it gets really hot I have a sleeveless jersey to peel down to.  For me if its above 30 deg, an insulated jacket while riding can get pretty hot if it is combined with my normal layers, especially after getting warmed up on the bike.  They feel great for the first half hour, but then the over heating sweat and subsequent chill cycle starts to happen.  I still need to experiment with an insulated vest, but suspect it might be too warm as well.

Now, around camp when I am not generating near the heat, I have fallen in love with my down sweater hoodie from Patagonia.  It was great last weekend when the low was about 23 on Sat.  I wouldn't ride in it, but I did hang out and sleep in it.  Seems to me that anything that makes a cold camp night comfortable would be too hot to ride in.  But then its dead weight if all you are concerned about is making good time on the bike and a little shivering is okay at camp.  A note on the down jacket, I would probably have searched out a lighter option had I the time, but didn't.  Ended up really liking the pockets as it allowed me to keep my hands warm while doing things with my gloves removed.  The full zip is a nice convenience as well, but probably dead weight.

My set up is probably not optimal, but has worked well.

I do have plans to sew up the Thru-Hiker Minima Vest with insulation just on the front side.  If I ever get around to that project I will let you know how it works out.  http://www.thru-hiker.com/kits/

--Matt

[Marshal]

A little off topic from your original question, and I am still getting my bikepacking set up dialed in, but here is my experience...  I really like my BobbyJ eVent jacket for both wind and rain. eVent breathes so well.  No hood so I also take a helmet cover (very small packed).  With the jacket on, an Ibex sleeveless jersey as my base layer, a regular synthetic jersey over that and thermal arm warmers my midsection is warm and comfortable to about 30 degrees or a bit less if its not crazy windy.  But I also have a polypro balaclava and skull cap on the head, and can always add the helmet cover if needed.  If it gets really hot I have a sleeveless jersey to peel down to.  For me if its above 30 deg, an insulated jacket while riding can get pretty hot if it is combined with my normal layers, especially after getting warmed up on the bike.  They feel great for the first half hour, but then the over heating sweat and subsequent chill cycle starts to happen.  I still need to experiment with an insulated vest, but suspect it might be too warm as well.

Now, around camp when I am not generating near the heat, I have fallen in love with my down sweater hoodie from Patagonia.  It was great last weekend when the low was about 23 on Sat.  I wouldn't ride in it, but I did hang out and sleep in it.  Seems to me that anything that makes a cold camp night comfortable would be too hot to ride in.  But then its dead weight if all you are concerned about is making good time on the bike and a little shivering is okay at camp.  A note on the down jacket, I would probably have searched out a lighter option had I the time, but didn't.  Ended up really liking the pockets as it allowed me to keep my hands warm while doing things with my gloves removed.  The full zip is a nice convenience as well, but probably dead weight.

My set up is probably not optimal, but has worked well.

I do have plans to sew up the Thru-Hiker Minima Vest with insulation just on the front side.  If I ever get around to that project I will let you know how it works out.  http://www.thru-hiker.com/kits/--Matt

Your ‘layer’ system is I think typical for many.  At least it’s very much like mine.  But I do use just a very minimal down vest.  When I stop and set up camp the 1st thing I do strip off any damp sweaty layers, hang them up and put on a dry base.  Some times the only dry base available is my down vest.  If it’s windy or really cold I can quickly wipe down the inside of my rain jacket and slip it on over the vest.  While setting up the rest of my camp, as my body cools down I begin to re-add the sweaty layers, one at a time and let my body heat finish drying them out.  By the time I am ready to slip into my bag my sweaty layers are mostly dry and re-arranged as needed, either on, in the right order for the next day, or in the bag with me.

In the super cold mornings I might have my vest on as my outer most layer (but still under my rain jacket) and it comes off just before I get warm, got to keep it dry.  I always pack it where I can quickly re-add it if I stop for a longer food break or get chilled on a long descent etc etc.

So my very light/minimal vest is a critical part of my overall layer system.  Mostly used around camp, but many times it’s on during the day and even sometimes when I am riding. 

(of course this is basically a summer time system for the dry West and would not necessarily work in wetter, colder conditions)

[Pivvay]

The vest also becomes more critical on multi day events because of other "issues" and lack of extra layers. I'd never use mine on a day ride but if you have to start out downhill in the morning (ugh) or late at night, if you haven't eaten enough and your body is extra whacked out or if you have to stop for a while to fix a bike issue, etc. Or I don't know, say you hook a tree limb riding over deadfall and crash into a frozen puddle at dawn with your WP jacket unzipped...doh!

I like the synthetic vest for this purpose because at the very fringe of summer UL items, synthetics aren't necessarily heavier than down for the same warmth and deal with toughness issues better (wet,crashes). This is only due to construction and design issues, down is obviously still warmer than any compatible weight of man made stuff.

[protoceratops]

//
Or I don't know, say you hook a tree limb riding over deadfall and crash into a frozen puddle at dawn with your WP jacket unzipped...doh!
//

Sooooo...how long did it take you to dry out?