Which Water Filter/Purifier??

[WWOOF]

The chemicals are not dangerous, at least not any worse than what you find in tap water.

This is my point exactly. Unless you run a reverse osmosis filter on your home faucet you are being exposed to thousands of toxic chemicals (birth control hormones, benzene, trace antibiotics, and other organic molecules) in minute doses.  If you are concerned about viruses, the only filters I've been able to find that deal with them are Sawyer.

They make a filter that goes down to .02 micron pore size which catches viruses.

http://www.sawyer.com/products.htm

[robinb]

From what I understand, crypto is indeed pretty rare in the mountains.

I believe crypto is from cattle... so if in cattle country beware.

[bmike-vt]

Kent P used the Sawyer last year:

http://kentsbike.blogspot.com/2010/07/tour-divide-stuff-that-worked-hydration.html

[Marshal]

Water treatment in my experience can get a bit confusing.  I've wondered why the treatment time on Aquamira drops is so short.  The conclusion I've come to (which may be incorrect) is that with suggested dose and treatment time for Aquamira drops you will not kill cryptosporidium cysts. 

When using drops or tabs or whatever what we are waiting on is for the chemical to penetrate cysts.  The thicker the wall of the cyst, the more difficult it is to penetrate.  And I believe of the various cysts that we are concerned about, crypto is the thickest walled and the most difficult to kill.  If I'm not mistaken, Aquamira drops don't claim to be able to kill crypto, hence the short wait time. 

Iodine also has a very short wait time.  But take a look at modern packaging on iodine tabs and it clearly states that iodine has been shown not to be effective against crypto.

So if aquamira drops at recommended dose and time don't kill crypto why aren't people getting sick?  I think think it may be that crypto simply isn't present in a lot of the water we are treating. 

If anyone knows otherwise, please chime in and continue my education!

You are basically correct about the dwell time needed to penetrate cysts.  There is also a dosage size and water temp effect. Higher dose=better results  Colder water temp=slower cyst wall penetration

In short aquamira drops, at normal dose and dwell time will not penetrate cysts--this is why the drops are not advertised as having that capability.  Note: If you increase the dosage and dwell time then the drops would do so, but see next-

However aquamira tablets, 3 times the strength of the drops plus longer required dwell time, will kill the cysts, exactly like the other brand.

The only real advantage of the drops over tabs is that the liquid is faster than the tablets to kill all the non-cysts nasties. 

As to the frequency of cyst exposure?  The further down stream, the more cattle, the higher the temp the greater the possibility of all type nasties.

I think aquamira drops would be fine in most US mountains - at the higher altitudes: ie close to the spring head and above the cattle.  Also I think the drops would be a great complement to a filter system else where.  Filters will remove the more prevalent and larger cysts + the drops to quickly kill the smaller viruses.

[Done]

In short aquamira drops, at normal dose and dwell time will not penetrate cysts--this is why the drops are not advertised as having that capability.  Note: If you increase the dosage and dwell time then the drops would do so, but see next-

However aquamira tablets, 3 times the strength of the drops plus longer required dwell time, will kill the cysts, exactly like the other brand.

Hey Marshall, do you have a link to the source of this information? There's a lot of noise on the Internet on this subject (some pro, some con, some confused), but I'm trying to locate actual peer-reviewed scientific studies. So far, Ryan N. Jordan, Ph.D. seems to be the most credible researcher who is often quoted regarding Aquamira, but perhaps there others who have done additional studies--like the source behind your statements?

I'm thinking about contacting Dr. Jordan directly, but I'm curious what you've found before I bother the guy.

Thanks!

[Done]

I went ahead and e-mail Dr. Jordan. Hopefully he'll provide some enlightenment. His bio is certainly credible! I'll post here when/if I get a response.

[Marshal]

Hey Marshall, do you have a link to the source of this information? There's a lot of noise on the Internet on this subject (some pro, some con, some confused), but I'm trying to locate actual peer-reviewed scientific studies. So far, Ryan N. Jordan, Ph.D. seems to be the most credible researcher who is often quoted regarding Aquamira, but perhaps there others who have done additional studies--like the source behind your statements?

I'm thinking about contacting Dr. Jordan directly, but I'm curious what you've found before I bother the guy.

Thanks!

peer-reviewed scientific studies?  thats way overkill for me, just looking at the same net info as everone else

but Dr Jordan proves the point when he said this about the drops:
quote:For more contaminated or suspect waters, I do recommend doubling the dose and/or the contact time, but for most U.S. backcountry locations in the mountain west, the standard dose and contact time is usually sufficient (with high stock use areas being the exception). close quote

ie: for the drops to “effectively” kill cysts you need higher dosage and time –just like the tablets do, after all the tables and the drops are the same stuff and work the same—just different delivery methods

Anyway all I need to resolve this particular ‘splitting hairs’ question is this  -- the drops 'are still not' and the tables 'are' advertised as having the capability to kill cysts.

[pro_out]

Made a call to Aquamira today, impressed with their customer service, they have know e-mail address but promise when you call You will speak to a live person, and so it was.
 My first question was, at prescribed dosages are the drops as good as the tablets. His answer was no. He explained that the drops are at a rate of 2 parts/million and the tablets are at a rate of 4 parts/million and for the drops to be as effective as the tabs one would need to double the dosage and double the dwell time for clear water and additional time for dirtier water. Note these are his recommendations as per EPA guidelines.
 My next ? was, will the drops at prescribed dosage kill most things in North American water.. short pause............ uhhhhhh probably.

Short answer Drops  2p/m kill everything   = probably(but doesn't meet EPA guide)
                  Drops  2p/m x2x2 everything = yes
                  Tablet 4p/m kill everything    = yes
 pre-mix of A&B for 5 min. minimum is very important.
other recommendations as per contamination- treat- threads on caps and lids, straws & drink tubes, zippers on bladders any where untreated water could hide. Suggested washing cooking, dinning and utensils  with a Aquamira solution.

 Related but not part of our conversation - Beavers are a BIG contributor of giardia to waterways (fence the old timers name for the sickness Beaver Fever)

I in no way am trying to prove anyone right or wrong, just trying to clear the cloud over these two same but yet different products.

Ride On, Tony

[Done]

I just got a response from Ryan N. Jordan, Ph.D.:

Toby,

I've done a lot of research on Aqua Mira. Much of it is protected by nondisclosure agreements.

I still use it. My personal opinion is that other than UV light (like the Steri-Pen), it's the most efficacious method of water treatment for bacteria, viruses, and protozoan cysts.

Like Tony, I'm not trying to prove anyone right or wrong--but I am trying to sort through various claims to find out whether the stuff is going to keep me healthy or not. I'll see what Ryan has to say about how much to use, and how long to wait.

[6thElement]

So I should first filter, then zap with UV, the round out the treatment with a nice blast of chemicals?

[Michael_S]

just another data point. Backpacker magazine states that a 4 hour wait is needed to kill  Cryptosporidium with the drops.
Seems like a little bit of a risk only using the drops to me. Although the risk is less then injesting Giardia as the effects are self limiting in a normal person.

I'll still be sticking with my MSR filter.

~Mike

[Done]

So I should first filter, then zap with UV, the round out the treatment with a nice blast of chemicals?

I've decided to simply collect rainwater with an inverted umbrella mounted to my helmet.

[stumpbumper]

I've decided to simply collect rainwater with an inverted umbrella mounted to my helmet.

Dang it, you just had to go and bring up a rainwater collector for the helmet.  I have long wondered why someone did not come up with one.  So, should I fire away with more of my Newbie questions about it here or create a new thread titled "Tell Me About TobyGadd's Revolutionary New Mobile Water-Collecting Thingamajig"?

Whether here or in a new thread my first question will have to do with acid rain and its effect (if any) on our bodily fluids.       

[WWOOF]

I've decided to simply collect rainwater with an inverted umbrella mounted to my helmet.

Only if its ultralight silnylon I can only spare .1 oz in my kit lolol.

[chrisx]

does anyone have experience/opinions of the Sawyer in line filters? Their site says that they are good for 1 million gallons with adequate care and backwashing, but are they a good choice for bikepacking?

I have used a Sawyer in line purifier since last summer.  It claims to be a water purifier, supposedly better than a filter.
The good; 
no moving parts to fail, comes with a facet adapter for back flushing, adapter can be used to filter water from a soda bottle when your bladder fails, light weight. {lightest?}
The bad;
As with all filters, the fine print reads replace if it freezes.  Did it get down to 33 or 31 that one night?  last night it was in my sleeping bag while my bottle of water froze solid.  (No need to filter snow, just melt and drink.)  Slow, think rapid drip drip drip.  Fast enough for me, just enjoying the back woods, for a racer, hum? 

I gave up on the Steri Pen after another failure. 
Boiling is the only way with a 100% guarantee of safe water.
The in line has many advantages over other methods, 
most adaptable to various water sources, light, long lasting if you are sure it did not freeze, there seems to be a regulation about claiming purifier over filter.
The in line stays in my pack, next to my little tea kettle.  By the way, the tea kettle makes a good pan for cooking and sets right in the fire, so I can lug less fuel.

[sanjuanrider]

I've gotta agree with Toby on the AquaMira.  I was originally using a Steripen until I realized it sucked up battery use very quickly so I shipped it home during the CTR last year. I bought AquaMira and had to treat some nasty looking water from a cow tank in shear desperation for hydration. Never got sick. Lucky? Might have been - but it convinced me it worked.