stem rise vs handling and Jones bars for technical 2 questions

[trail_monkey]

Not sure if these forums are for technical bike questions so I apologize but surely some of you bike pack on technical single track and several of you probably mountain bike in your spare time? My bike has a rigid front fork with a steerer that could stand to be an inch taller. I built this bike a year and a half ago from the frame up using a Salsa fork I already had. With a Salsa Guide 80 mm stem (7 degree rise +-) my Jones bars are maybe 2 inches lower than my saddle. That's a guess not an exact measurement. It feels good until I hit around 10-20 miles or so then The more aggressive stance starts getting to me. So I bought a Ritchey 90 mm 30 degree riser stem (same reach due to extreme angle) and it feels much better. My bars are now close to saddle height or maybe a tad below but not much. I keep telling myself I should just buy a new fork and go back to a less severe stem. It's a mental thing but I just feel like I am riding miss daisy lol. I feel like an old woman cruising around town. When I go group riding all my friends are on fat bikes with flat bars and normal stem height (although most of them have bars close to saddle height with a normal stem). I can't help but feel that if I go off road trail riding, that this stem is going to handle worse than if I had a longer steerer, bar same height, with my old stem. Am I overthinking this or am I right?

I also asked a good friend yesterday on our ride if his Jones bars felt good when he does mountain biking at our local park on the technical stuff and he said he didn't think so. He said he had not tried them too often in that manner but when he had it didn't feel right. He has 2 other bikes with flat bars he normally will take out on the fun stuff and his Jones bar bike is his bike packing and less technical bike. I have 1 mountain bike and I make constant adjustments when I am fitting/trying new things, but once I get a bike set up I hate switching parts constantly. Does anyone here use one nice bike for multiple use without switching bars and stems every time they go somewhere different to ride?

Sorry if these questions are off topic with this forum.

[bmike-vt]

Have you tried it yet? Probably more valuable than 20 opinions on a forum.
My Jones are about an inch lower than saddle. It's all I know but it's all I ride.

[trail_monkey]

Sadly I know your hundred percent correct. Sometimes it's just nice to hear from other people who may have had experience. But I know in the end it's all what matters to me. I have rode with this riser stem on a long very hilly gravel ride but I have never had a chance to take it mountain biking yet.

[Smithhammer]

.....It feels good until I hit around 10-20 miles or so then The more aggressive stance starts getting to me. So I bought a Ritchey 90 mm 30 degree riser stem (same reach due to extreme angle) and it feels much better.

There's your answer. There's really nothing that says you need to be stretched out and hunched over in order to ride singletrack effectively. And in fact, if you're less comfortable, you're riding will suffer, esp. over longer distances, which seems to be what you have found.

....I also asked a good friend yesterday on our ride if his Jones bars felt good when he does mountain biking at our local park on the technical stuff and he said he didn't think so. He said he had not tried them too often in that manner but when he had it didn't feel right.

I think this is a pretty common mistake/misunderstanding when people switch to something like a Jones bar - they barely give it a chance, and then decide they don't like it. You really have to spend some time with that bar (just like a number of other 'alt' bars) in order for your body to get accustomed to how it handles, try it on different terrain, and to make a truly informed decision about whether it works for you or not. Not everyone is ultimately going to like an alt bar, but most people don't even give it a chance before coming to a conclusion, based off of whatever they are already used to which is probably quite different.

Does anyone here use one nice bike for multiple use without switching bars and stems every time they go somewhere different to ride?

Yes. My goal with any bike I set up is to make it as comfortable for a variety of uses as possible. Part of this is inherent in the bikes that I choose to buy to begin with, but then the rest of it comes down to outfitting, and knowing the body position that I like to be in for spending long amounts of time in the saddle.

Check out some of Jeff Jones' thoughts on bike design, body position and outfitting. Of course I'm not suggesting that your SOMA and a Jones bike are the same thing by any means, but a lot of what Jeff has to say about the importance of finding a comfortable position for a multi-purpose bike and for a variety of different types of riding, is not limited to his own designs.

[trail_monkey]

Thanks for the response. I actually talked to Jeff on the phone personally before I bought his bars from my bike shop. One thing that I didn't agree with was the need for a super short stem. He asked me my measurements and he asked me what bike I had and he got on the internet while he was on the phone with me and he looked at the geometry on my Soma. He recommended that I go with like a 40 or 50 millimeter stem with his bars. This would have put the bars right in my lap LOL. When I built this bike Soma told me in an email that because of the slack geometry a lot of riders felt crowded in the cockpit with the same link stem as their old bike. So I ordered Jeff's bars and I stuck with my same length stem and it felt pretty good at first. But since I had flat riser bars on there before, his bars were quite a bit lower. So I bought a Ritchey stem and it did feel a lot better. Although I could see now where if I was riding into a headwind I would be like a parachute LOL. But I think there's other ways to deal with that.

[the tortoise]

It is not uncommon for trail riders to have their bars higher than their seat. Enduro and downhill riders like higher front ends but then bike performance suffers on the uphills. Bar height is always going to be a compromise as well as the geometry of a bike particularly the front end head angle. The new "modern" trail bike geometry is not for everyone.  You sacrifice uphill climbing and riding efficiency on the flats or rollers. Slack head tube angles, short stems and wide bars are great for the baggie wearing gravity crowd who may put in 15 to 20 miles at most before they hit the pub but for bikepacking and long distance riding it probably isn't the way to go.

I think Jone's bars are OK but as much as I like a swept back bar I think they are a little too radical and may interfere with your legs in sharp turns and they put you pretty upright as well which might not be so good for seat comfort in the long haul. He even offers a single long tube that comes off the front of the bar to make you more aero but it you want aero and comfort I would go with a standard aero bar with elbow pads that many TD riders use. Can't believe it would be very comfortable for the long haul.

My go to trail bike (which is great for technical bikepacking as well) is a Trek Stache. Climbs well and descends great particularly in the rubble. Head angle is not too slack, the short stays make it nimble for a 29 plus. Bought it rigid but it really screams for a front suspension fork which I added and makes it much more capable. Dropper post is a real game changer too when it gets fast and or technical on the downhills. My bars are also slightly above the seat due to my advanced age! My friend has a 27.5 plus bike with a slacker head angle (Norco Torrent) and he complains that it doesn't climb as well as his 29er hardtail with a steeper head angle. He rips the downhills though but I think my Stache is faster on the downhills and climbs more accurately on the uphills. He has put on a longer lower stem on his Torrent to make it climb a little better.

[drwelby]

I can offer a data point - when I messed around with Jones-style bars I started out with a stem that put my hands in about the same place. Hated it. Started working through my box of stems and spacers and ended up with the tallest, dorkiest stem in the box. Moving the seat back helped too. The best way to explain it was that for me I wanted the bars to be closer to how you would want to handle a wheelbarrow. Trying to be stretched out didn't work at all.

[Hayduke]

I went though the same thing with the J bar on my Surly ECR, I sort of felt like I was twiddling around like Pee Wee Herman haha

....then I read the PDF instruction sheet put out by Jones :- )
I had been running the bar with the grips angled slightly tilted up or flat to level. Instructions suggest the grips should be angled down 10° or so. So I did :- )

That simple change made a huge difference in how the whole bike feels. The loner flat bar from my LBS went back, tingly hands went away and my bike is a lot more fun shredding single track and technical climbing:- ) I really like the J bar on the climbs!

...my stem is  pretty long and about level with my seat, apparently the Surly folks don't like their handlebars in their laps either.

[trail_monkey]

The bike really does feel good with the Riser stem and my Jones bars. Even set at just a couple degrees downward tilt, which isn't much, they still feel really good. The hardest part for me is just getting the past the fact that I'm not young and cool anymore LOL! It's easy to get wrapped up in the flat bar and short stem way lower than the seat fad cuz it looks so cool and all the videos you see online have the young cocky pros riding like that. Maybe it's time to grow up LOL. Comfort is now priority

[Smithhammer]

So.....what was the question? 

FWIW - this is how I have mine set up.

Seat and stem height are about equal, bars are tilted down about 8º.

Stem is a 70mm, 0º rise.



Every now and then I have to resist the urge to mess with it, or think that there is a "better" way - but then I get on the bike and it is just perfect, regardless of the terrain.

[trail_monkey]

So.....what was the question? 

FWIW - this is how I have mine set up.

Seat and stem height are about equal, bars are tilted down about 8º.

Stem is a 70mm, 0º rise.



Every now and then I have to resist the urge to mess with it, or think that there is a "better" way - but then I get on the bike and it is just perfect, regardless of the terrain.

Nice ride. My bike doesn't have a tall head tube so if I had a new fork with a longer steerer I would have a lot of spacers. I think I am better off with my riser stem. The question wasn't about fit but more about how this riser stem was going to feel on the drops, climbs, and tight switchbacks. I can't wait to test it myself whenever I get time to travel to the trails.

[Hayduke]

The bike really does feel good with the Riser stem and my Jones bars. Even set at just a couple degrees downward tilt, which isn't much, they still feel really good. The hardest part for me is just getting the past the fact that I'm not young and cool anymore LOL! It's easy to get wrapped up in the flat bar and short stem way lower than the seat fad cuz it looks so cool and all the videos you see online have the young cocky pros riding like that. Maybe it's time to grow up LOL. Comfort is now priority

Versatility and comfort are the new 'cool' haha and comfort leads to smooth and smooth is fast when the miles stretch out.
My wife and son clip in and jersey up on bikes with aggressive geometry and so do lots of our friends we trail ride with. For me not all rides are 'races' though, in fact for me almost none of them are haha I'm just a 51 year old  that likes to ride his bike :- )
Sometimes it's twisty singletrack, sometimes two tracks and when I've got a job in town, I ride around town in my work clothes looking for taco's and a cold beer at lunch. Sometimes I ride 15 minutes around my circle drive doing wheelies, standies and other such BMX silliness,  sometimes I take off for 2 or 3 days. It's all good for me :- )

I would have sorted out my Jones bar issues a lot faster had I watched and read the material Jones has put out concerning his bicycle philosophy :- ) I felt like the guy had been reading my mail haha

[trail_monkey]

Versatility and comfort are the new 'cool' haha and comfort leads to smooth and smooth is fast when the miles stretch out.
My wife and son clip in and jersey up on bikes with aggressive geometry and so do lots of our friends we trail ride with. For me not all rides are 'races' though, in fact for me almost none of them are haha I'm just a 51 year old  that likes to ride his bike :- )
Sometimes it's twisty singletrack, sometimes two tracks and when I've got a job in town, I ride around town in my work clothes looking for taco's and a cold beer at lunch. Sometimes I ride 15 minutes around my circle drive doing wheelies, standies and other such BMX silliness,  sometimes I take off for 2 or 3 days. It's all good for me :- )

I would have sorted out my Jones bar issues a lot faster had I watched and read the material Jones has put out concerning his bicycle philosophy :- ) I felt like the guy had been reading my mail haha

Right on brother!

[bakerjw]

For long rides, it has to be the Jones. I have an adjustable stem that was really good for allowing me to raise or lower the bar while making adjustments to the hand angle. Once at the right position and angle, it has been wonderful.

For going out and playing, I prefer a traditional flat bar which gives a more aggressive riding position.

[Bob]

Having just built up a fat bike with Jones Loop bars I'm on the same learning curve as the OP. Basically you've the following adjustments:

saddle height
saddle fore and aft position
saddle angle
stem height
stem length
stem angle
bar angle

That's a lot of variables!

As noted above, the "slammed stem" that is popular with the trail centre crowd isn't that good for long days in the saddle. On my 29er I've gone from getting numb fingers when using a slammed stem and suspension forks to no numbness with a rigid fork but with a higher stem. Due to soreness in the seating area, I also tilted the saddle down slightly (about 5deg) this helps recruit the muscles around my pelvis and lower back/abdomen and eases tension in my shoulders which leads down the arms. The result is that I can ride all day on that bike with no numbness in my hands and no lower back pain or stiffness in the shoulders. I need to find that sweet spot with the Jones Bars on the fat bike, I'm not far off it but it needs a little more tweeking.

[trail_monkey]

Having just built up a fat bike with Jones Loop bars I'm on the same learning curve as the OP. Basically you've the following adjustments:

saddle height
saddle fore and aft position
saddle angle
stem height
stem length
stem angle
bar angle

That's a lot of variables!

As noted above, the "slammed stem" that is popular with the trail centre crowd isn't that good for long days in the saddle. On my 29er I've gone from getting numb fingers when using a slammed stem and suspension forks to no numbness with a rigid fork but with a higher stem. Due to soreness in the seating area, I also tilted the saddle down slightly (about 5deg) this helps recruit the muscles around my pelvis and lower back/abdomen and eases tension in my shoulders which leads down the arms. The result is that I can ride all day on that bike with no numbness in my hands and no lower back pain or stiffness in the shoulders. I need to find that sweet spot with the Jones Bars on the fat bike, I'm not far off it but it needs a little more tweeking.

I am not sure where your saddle tilt was to start with but for me any downward tilt is detrimental. I find that I tend to slide forward while riding which puts more weight on my hands as I try to keep myself from sliding forward.

[Hayduke]

I try not too change more than one thing at a time, it just confuses me haha

For me saddle height and seat fore/aft adjustment is low hanging fruit, I use heel to extended pedal and plumb line off the knee cap, both parallel to the seat post and that's that. My saddle is level, if that doesn't work it's because something else is out of wack.

Stem length, height and angle get adjusted to suit how up-right I want to ride the bike. On my ECR I'm about 50°or so with slightly bent elbows, good enough for me :- )

I had made myself nutty fitting my bike, but a couple hours a week with a kettle bell doing swings and presses has done wonders for my core and back strength. Kettle bells also taught me how to flex at the hips and keep a straight back.

Bike riding comfort increased by 10 fold :- )

[Smithhammer]

I'm going to respectfully disagree that a short stem isn't necessarily conducive to long days in the saddle. Stem length is a variable that works (or doesn't work) in concert with a number of other variables. As a stand-alone factor, stem length doesn't necessarily have anything to do with how comfortable one is in the saddle all day. It may not be conducive, if a number of other variables in how you have your bike set up contribute to a short stem giving you poor body position, but that same stem length on a different bike with a longer TT, more setback, etc. might be perfectly fine.

[Bob]

I am not sure where your saddle tilt was to start with but for me any downward tilt is detrimental. I find that I tend to slide forward while riding which puts more weight on my hands as I try to keep myself from sliding forward.

Starting point was level, current position is -5deg. It's enough to relieve pressure on the groin but not enough to make you slide forward. Shortly after I did this British Cycling made a representation to the UCI about saddle angles following their investigation into problems encountered by the women's track team.

[Hayduke]

I'm going to respectfully disagree that a short stem isn't necessarily conducive to long days in the saddle. Stem length is a variable that works (or doesn't work) in concert with a number of other variables. As a stand-alone factor, stem length doesn't necessarily have anything to do with how comfortable one is in the saddle all day. It may not be conducive, if a number of other variables in how you have your bike set up contribute to a short stem giving you poor body position, but that same stem length on a different bike with a longer TT, more setback, etc. might be perfectly fine.

I agree, my wife rides a Specialized Ruze Expert 6fattie with a rather aggressive trail geometry that had her torso right around 45° or less. She liked it for shredding, but general, all  day trail riding, long climbs, not so much.

She swaped out to a riser bar with a little more sweep and she's good to go. She did crash today on the 13 mile loop we do from our house around, up and down a big Mesa on a state land section that borders our property. Not bike fit related :- )