Pads?

[rocky rode]

I've been using a cut down Ridge Rest for backpacking and some bikepacking.  I also have an older Thermarest Ultralight pad that's getting too many leaks/patches to be reliable.  It also is NOT ultralight.  The Ridge Rest works pretty well when new but the foam packs down too soon and I wake with numb side and hips which keeps me rolling from one side to the other all night.  It's also too bulky on the bike.  It seems many of you are using the new Thermarest Prolite.  I'm looking at the Bozeman Mountain Works Pad- 

http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/torsolite_inflatable_sleeping_pad.html

It's weighs 10 oz, lighter than the Prolite and seems like a better option.  Anyone used them both and have any input?  I see Scott is using a Clearview (?) plastic inflatable pad, no insulation and it appears fragile, but I'm listening to any input.

Gary

[AmyL]

Gary,
I think the TorsoLite pad may become somewhat obsolete in Spring 2009 when Cascade Designs releases their new NeoAir pad.  The new pad will be pricey, but looks like it will blow the socks off all the other choices for those who have enough money to buy one.  Apparently the Cascade Designs patent on the therma-rest type pads has run out and they have invested a lot of effort to come up with their next generation of pad.

http://www.outdoorindustry.org/media.outdoor.php?news_id=4187&sort_year=2008
http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/orsm08_plush_pads.html
http://beardedgit.com/?p=840

The backpackinglight article (by Mike Martin) is a subscription-only story, so in case you don't subscribe, here is the critical info:
"As a lightweight, technically minded backpacker, if you were looking to rate the overall performance of a sleeping pad, you might define a "performance envelope" consisting of parameters like warmth, weight, comfort, and packed size. A traditional backpacker might also include durability and ease-of-use, but I'd argue these are less important to lightweight hikers. Tradeoffs among these parameters are unavoidable in any pad technology. For example, closed-cell foam pads are generally lighter, but less comfortable and bulkier than self-inflators.
The new Therm-a-Rest NeoAir pad expands the envelope by offering a 2.5 inch thickness for comfort, an extremely compact stored size, and a claimed R-value of R-2.5 for warmth. The NeoAir achieves the comfort and compact size by virtue of its non-self-inflating construction. This itself is not new in pad designs, as companies such as Big Agnes, Exped, and Pacific Outdoor Equipment have had this type of pad for some time. By eliminating or reducing the thickness of the internal insulation, a non-self-inflator can be blown up to a plush, comfortable thickness, and still be deflated to a compact size for packing. The drawback of this kind of construction is that it is difficult to achieve much thermal insulation. If the pad is constructed with large, empty air chambers like the Big Agnes Clearview Pad, convective air currents in the pad will decrease its insulation dramatically. One way around this is to add some down or synthetic high-loft insulation to the inside of the pad chambers, as is done in the Exped Downmats, Pacific Outdoor Equipment Ether Thermo pads, and Big Agnes Insulated Air Core series. By impeding convective currents, this construction adds substantial warmth. But, it adds weight and increases packed bulk. Plus, if down is used, a pump must be used for inflation to avoid trapping moisture from your breath inside the pad.
The NeoAir promises to deliver the light weight, simplicity, and compactibility of an insulation-less non-self-inflator like the Clearview Air, with the warmth of an insulated pad. It achieves this with a five-layer honeycomb construction that disrupts convective currents and reflects radiant heat.
Producing this honeycomb structure, dubbed "Core Matrix," required new manufacturing technology. A proprietary machine made in Tacoma, Washington welds the five fabric layers simultaneously. The process is time consuming, requiring up to ten minutes for the machine to complete the discrete welds. Current prototype pads are being made with a prototype welder, but the company has a larger capacity machine in development. Somewhat surprisingly in this day of Asian-produced goods, the production pads will be made in Seattle.  The technology has taken over five years of development."

[I have no involvement with or financial interest in backpackinglight.com, but I do subscribe because I find the subscription-only info there to be so thorough and useful.]

About the fragility of the Big Agnes ClearView pad, this review makes it sound like that will not be a big problem since it is pretty sturdy and very easy to repair.
http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/big_agnes_clearview_air_pad_review.html

Amy

[rocky rode]

Thanks, Amy.  As usual your reply was very thorough and well informed.  I am a member of BPL, maybe I should read more of the articles.    It looks like the Clearview may be the way to go for me, at least for now.  Maybe when it's cold I could add one of those reflective windshield screens, that Curiak pioneered, between bag and pad to help with the heat loss.  One problem with the Clearview is that my hiking pack (Breeze) uses a pad as a stiffener, so it may not be the best option for that.  I could use a very light ensolite pad as a stiffener and for sittin' around camp but then there's the weight issue.  I did decided after my last backpack a few weeks ago that a good nights sleep is worth whatever weight it requires.  I do OK with the Ridgrest when it's new but they don't last long at all before the foam gets soft, maybe a dozen nights.

Gary

[AmyL]

Gary,
The super-thin closed cell pad from GossamerGear might be a good addition to the ClearView - since you mentioned carrying a thin foam pad for extra insulation when it's cold.  The 20"x59"x1/8" pad weighs only 2 oz., and you can cut it down to something like 20x40" or whatever you think you need.
http://www.gossamergear.com/cgi-bin/gossamergear/thinlight.html?id=taXAskLf:67.116.253.136

1/8" is REALLY thin, but it does take the edge off both the cold and the discomfort of sitting on rocks.  The 3/16" from backpackinglight.com would offer more insulation.

We carry two of these just so we can sit around comfortably and not have our butts directly on rocky soil.  We then use them under our feet at night, since we use the short thermarest prolite-3 pads.  It's also nice to have the foam pad along in case your inflatopad fails.  We had a punctured thermarest which took us a couple days to get organized enough to patch, and I just slept on the two thin foam pads plus the deflated thermarest and it worked well enough.

One weird thing about the Big Agnes Pad (which I've tested on a floor, but never in the field) is that the surface is quite "sticky", so even if you are wearing a base layer it has a kind of a weird effect.  If you put a thin thin foam pad (or the reflective windscreen) on top of the ClearView, you'd get the insulation value plus you also might avoid that weird sticky feeling.

[By the way, Backcountry.com sells the Big Anges pads, and they have 20% off most of their stock (using code 3BG-1-AEMTB), offer expires on about Oct 30.  I'll forward the email to your email so you can see the offer (in case you don't already have it).]

Good luck.  Amy

[ScottM]

Gary,

Switching to the Big Agnes air pads has been a recent revelation for me.  I've used Z-rests, car visor type things and more recently the prolite 3.

For me, the Big Agnes pads are at least 3-4 times more comfortable than the prolite 3.  YMMV -- I am a ~big guy compared to some.  For me the extra thickness means the difference of my hip being on the ground or not.  Paula also loves them, she just uses a lot less air pressure.

I've only used the clearview when it's relatively warm, and have the insulated one for colder trips.  It weighs a bit more than a prolite but comfort is worth it, and it does pack a bit smaller.

The thing that kills me about the big agnes pads is that they are more comfortable than the "car camping" super thick thermarests we have.  I was shocked to get some of the best camp sleep I've ever had while supposedly going "ultralight."

[ScottM]

One weird thing about the Big Agnes Pad (which I've tested on a floor, but never in the field) is that the surface is quite "sticky", so even if you are wearing a base layer it has a kind of a weird effect.  If you put a thin thin foam pad (or the reflective windscreen) on top of the ClearView, you'd get the insulation value plus you also might avoid that weird sticky feeling.

Amy,

Thanks for all the info -- you're a great resource to have on the board!

You're right that the clearview is a little sticky (the other big agnes pads are not).  Pretty uncomfortable if you're directly on it, but not real noticeable IME, if your sleeping bag is between you and the pad.  Throwing an insulated pad between it might be a good idea and would extend its temperature range.

I only have two nights in AZ on my clearview (+8 in Oregon, but there's nothing sharp there).  Still, my prolite got a flat on day 2 in AZ.  So far so good, in other words.

[AmyL]

Scott wrote:  "not real noticeable IME, if your sleeping bag is between you and the pad."

Doh, I have been using top-only bags for 20+ years and it didn't even enter my narrow brain that stickiness is a non-issue for people who use sleeping bags instead of quilt type  top-bags. 

Amy

[Pivvay]

I use the 1/8" thinlight when racing. It's nothing but it's a good under 2oz groundsheet and keeps some cold away.

I'm looking forward to trying the neo air for a more lux pad when it comes out.

[sherpaxc]

You silly people and your pads.  Hang from a tree like a monkey, just like God intended. 

[FeloniousDunk]

Hey Sherpaxc,

I've been experimenting with hammocks a bit lately too and haven't got all the kinks worked out.  What do you do for insulation under you?  I get pretty cold in it with out a pad of some sort when it gets only into the 50s.  BTW, the Hammock Forum is, frankly, overwhelming me with options to explore. 

[sherpaxc]

yeah, they get a little excited when a new guy comes to town.  there really are a ton of options.  What type of hammock are you in?  That will help me help you get going. 

[Eric]

This might be common knowledge but i thought I'd share:
if you are using an inflatable the #1 thing you should bring with you ( on long trips at least) is a tube of aquaseal. You can easily fix punctures with it and even major tears if you also have a needle and thread. Those patches they sell are just to make $$... If you have an old leaky pad, go buy a tube and stick the pad in the tub to find the leaks, with some work it can be back in action in no time.
For summer I use a prolite 3 that was converted into a 3/4 length by accident.

[FeloniousDunk]

yeah, they get a little excited when a new guy comes to town.  there really are a ton of options.  What type of hammock are you in?  That will help me help you get going. 

I made one.  I just took a rectangular piece of 1.9oz put hems in the sides and channels on the end.  I ran about a 10" piece of webbing through the channel and sewed it into loops.  I made a suspension system out of the same light webing and these  http://www.metoliusclimbing.com/behemoth_pad.htm#buckles.  If it never got below 60ish degrees, everything would be great!  I can't spend the money on an underquilt and I can't find a ccf pad small enough to carry on my bike.  I'm guessing I'll go with the Big Agnes pad I have, but I slide all over.  Weight wise, if I add much more, I might as well sleep with a pad/bivy/tarp set up.  Any ideas?

[sherpaxc]

I have the same issue, I REALLY want to buy an underquilt but just can't pull the trigger on one.  I want to so bad but others things come first.  Check out a Speer SPE:
http://www.speerhammocks.com/Products/SPE.htm

My friend has one and really likes it.  It should keep you from sliding around and you can use your current set up with only an extra 3 ounces.  The other option is to make a double layer hammock.  That way you can slide your pad between the two layers and  you'll lay on it and it won't slide around.  This is what I use on my extended bicycle tours (road).  For bikepacking my current set-up for my hammock is as follows:  Homemade hammock (very similar to yours), 3/4 Prolite 3, and my 3.0 Wingnut under my legs.  I sleep really well.  I have contact cement on my Prolite that pretty much keeps it still, I've also put velcro on there and that worked for a few nights until the velcro peeled off.  I think I'm actually going to get an SPE though and try it out.  Ultimately, I will buy an underquilt, but not for a while. 

There is without a doubt a learning curve to sleeping in a hammock, but I think the benifits far outweigh the negatives.  No sore shoulders, no sore hips, no worry about bugs crawling on you, no worries about finding a flat spot.  I don't think I'd use it for racing anymore, but anything where time isn't to much of a concern would be perfect. 

[DaveC]

I use a Prolite 3s when I want luxury, and a cutdown, many years old ridge rest when I don't.  The RR forms the frame of one of my packs, too.

[Singletrackrod]

I have been using an Exped Airmat 7.5 for a couple years. Very comfortable as long as the temp is above about 30. The Expeds can be prone to puncture, so it's wise to be careful where you chose to lie.