Winter Sleep System

[Marshal]

Winter Sleep System

I am thinking of doing a couple of winter ‘over night’ rides this yr but would need a real winter sleep system.  ( I live in Colorado and am thinking staying in mid level elevations so there might or might not be much snow but there will be low temps and a strong possibility of wind)

My requirements would be as follows:
1: Comfortably warm: but does this mean I should look at +0 or -20 bag, I have no clue what would work for me, I just want to be snug as the main point is a comfortable night after a semi-hard day of riding
2: Cost, I will spend enough to have a serviceable system but am looking for recreation level gear on this one, not competition level
3: Packable:  I have a Epic front bar harness so I should be able to pack a pad and mid size bag without to much trouble but would like to avoid ‘huge’ if possible
4: Multi night: I have heard that condensation and down can be an much bigger issue for winter time bivying so if I want to do more than one night out should I go with synthetic insulation? I guess this is also a cost and packability issue--I am leaning synthetic at this point..
5: Am I missing anything critical?

I have a nice roomy bivy that should work (REI Minimalist). Any comments on using this bivy on snow, winter wind etc?

As far as a full length pad, is there any particular features that make or break a pad for winter time use?

Any bag recommendations that seem to fit my criteria you would care to toss out?

Any one want to just list their winter sleep system gear and why ?


Edit--never mind this  question --I guess if I would have just looked in the 'winter' bikepacking section of this forum--gerr--I know I know

[Jilleo]

You did ask a good question and it's fun to offer individual opinions. I'm trying to work up some ACA blogs on winter camping so I might as well weigh in to jog my thoughts for a future post.

1. Love having a -40 bag for winter. The Marmot CWM is quite comfortable in temperatures ranging from 25 above to 35 below (the coldest temperature in which I've used it, but I was toasty.) It's nice to have that margin, too, although for weight and cost savings a -20 bag would probably suit you just fine. 0 is pushing it a bit for comfortably warm winter camping, in my opinion.

2. Wide cost range on the -20 bags. Synthetic bags tend to be cheaper but bulkier.

3. Hard to avoid huge with a winter system, although I roll everything (-40 degree bag and full-size Ridge Rest mat into my bivy) into a similar Epic front bar bag, although I need a front rack to keep the bundle from scraping my front tire.

4. Multinight condensation: Although I have yet to use one, based on research I think vapor barrier sleeping bag liners are the way to go. There's just no way to prevent condensation with a small bivy set-up, even with a breathable bivy bag (I use a Black Diamond Winter Bivy.) If you're only going for one night, a little condensation is OK, but over multiple nights it just continues to build and refreeze. Even synthetic bags are going to lose insulation value over time.

5. The pad: Inflatable pads are genearlly perceived as a bad idea for winter camping. The air inside the mat cools quickly and can work against the insulating properties of the mat. Also, if an inflatable pad pops, it becomes completely useless. Snow is already a soft sleeping surface. What you're looking for in mat is insulation. That's why close-cell foam mats such as Z-Rests and Ridge Rests are the way to go.

[Marshal]

Thanks for the well thought out answer Jill.  I have been researching a bit and am a little shocked at winter bag prices.  I also have been looking at the pack size for -20 deg bags and suspect I will want a down bag for this reason alone.  On the other hand, you make the -40 deg Marmot sound pretty attractive.

OK, so I eliminate a 0 deg and focus on finding a -20 (or better) down bag. 

That leaves the pad.  I like the durability of closed cell and while not that packable from a ‘size’ point of view they are easy to strap down somewhere. And I agree with the logic of avoiding air for winter camping but does a closed cell foam really have enough r value for winter?  Do you have to double layer them?

[AZTtripper]

Rather then doubling up on the pads how about getting one of these http://www.rei.com/product/407106 I was thinking of replacing my tarp with one for colder times. Seems like having this for a ground sheet would help also I would think it could make a wind break.

Not planning on sleeping in the snow myself just looking for something to use in the colder months trying to get a couple of degrees out of the bag I have now.

Just read the reviews on the REI page the first one from granny is great. I have used silver tarps in the past and found that it does make a noticeable difference.  

Laying inside a cocoon like this I could feel the heat radiating back off of the silver.

[pro_out]

Maybe one of these, you need a closed cell pad anyway.  http://www.rei.com/product/804326

[bmike-vt]

so, how much can one stretch a good down bag with a VBL and a bivvy? assuming one is out of the wind (lean to)?

i have a 30deg down bag. been in it to 22 or so overnight. out of the wind in a lean to.
i'm looking at a snow bike mission to a lean to off some ski / snow trails.

overnights will be in the teens. maybe zero-F.

big agnes 30deg bag, insulated air core pad, sea to summit thermolite reactor (the old one, used more to keep the funk out of the bag)...

could pick up a VBL, and would also pick up one of those e-bivys.
down vest or fleece in the bag, hat, socks, hand warmers in my jersey pockets on my lower back.
maybe a nalgene with hot water?

do-able?

anyone use one of these?
http://www.rivbike.com/products/show/vapor-barrier-liner/52-069

claims of adding 15deg to a bag...

[bmike-vt]

Rather then doubling up on the pads how about getting one of these http://www.rei.com/product/407106
Laying inside a cocoon like this I could feel the heat radiating back off of the silver.

I've used it in my hammock, and I've used it as a ground sheet in a lean to. Can't say I, noticed a difference.

[Done]

When the ground is cold, a closed-cell pad is an absolute necessity. Shiny tarps and the like may help retain a little radiant body heat, but it's the conductive cooling of the ground that really pulls the heat out of your bones in the winter.

Vapor barriers are a good idea too, but make sure that you have a nice wicking layer next to your skin--and try not to sleep so hot that you sweat much (hard line to find, at least for me).

All that said, isn't the winter a better time for skiing than riding?!?!  

[bmike-vt]

All that said, isn't the winter a better time for skiing that riding?!?!   

Mountain(s) is an hour or more away.
Lift tickets, skis, gear. Need to coordinate the car with the wife and little one.

XC skiing in town can be OK when the weather is right.
Backcountry skiing / XC etc. is an hour or more away.

I can ride there too...
Just not sure that I want to strap skis to my bike and overnight and then ski... but it could happen.

[DaveC]

Marshal, how cold do you plan to go?  Unless you're up above 8k or (alot) more, its hard to find -20 temps in the lower 48. 

It's good to respect the cold, but it's also easy to be paranoid and go overkill.  No need to spend 6-800 bucks on a winter bag if you don't need it.

Sleeping pads become crucial in the cold.  Most people bring far too little.  If that's the case, your huge down bag will do little good.  Aim for an R value of 4-6, which equates to two regular thickness ridgerests. 

As for condensation in the bag, it will happen.  Vapor barriers are one way to go, but with a VB liner you can't wear your warm clothes (a waste of weight and space) and VB clothing is a bit of a pain (and expensive or home made).  A better option is to stop and dry your bag at lunch, ideally in the sun and with a nice breeze.  A good down bag will dry quite quickly if it's only a bit damp.

[Marshal]

Thanks to all for the input so far……

Humm, how cold do I plan on going?  I really am not sure, what I mean is while I can (and will) research out expected temps, till I actually get out there and do it I really don’t know how my body will handle the “transition” form physically activity to sedentary sleep.  This transition is going to be a lot bigger in the winter time and that’s about all I really KNOW.

Anyway my house is about 8300 feet so basically I see myself camping between 7 and 9k under mixed conditions.  If the forecast calls for severe conditions I can always postpone till the next time.  But on the other hand once I invest time/effort into a ride I want enough safety/comfort factor to successfully handle unexpected conditions without resorting to a bail out.  Finish what I start and all that……..

Since I am not preparing for winter racing I am more than willing to pay a moderate weight/packability penalty.  And I hope/want to get my bag equal to or better than my needs the 1st time around.

So I am thinking of at least a -20 bag as I am older and tend to sleep cold.  So---time to sell some gear on ebay and pad up the ol paypal account.

The closed cell pads seem to be the way to go.  They are R rated from 2 - 3.5 so I expect I will need two to get 4-6 R

At 8300 feet I guess all I really need is my bag to begin a few backyard tests as I have two bivys and several pads to play around with.  This should give me a rough idea about condensation and basic insulation issues.

Say--I wonder if I could also get my dog to curl up next to me…nah she’s not that dumb.

[Outsider]

Good thread, it is always interesting to see different views. Regarding sleeping pads, a closed cell pad on the bottom and a therm-a-rest type sleeping pad, even a short one, is a working combination and has been used on arctic expeditions. Less bulky than two closed cell pads.

[Marshal]

Good thread, it is always interesting to see different views. Regarding sleeping pads, a closed cell pad on the bottom and a therm-a-rest type sleeping pad, even a short one, is a working combination and has been used on arctic expeditions. Less bulky than two closed cell pads.

ya that will be my 1st trial as I have one of each

[J-No]

The closed cell foam pads seem so bulky.

Here is what I run for temps from 0 to -20 (I live in MN)

Minimalist bivy from REI
REI -20 deg down bag
Thermarest pad. 

At below zero temps I can feel the cold coming up from the ground.  I am thinking of switching the thermarest for an insulated Big Agness air core pad.  It is still packable, but is thicker.  The self inflating part does not work in the winter.

I put everything together and then stuff the whole thing into a sea to summit XL eVent compression sack.  It goes on my back rack.  It is easy to take down and put back together.  I try to unzip/air out as many layers as I can in the bag.  I like my bag, but I am pretty broad shouldered and there is not a whole lot of room.

I have used this set up a few times, mostly in events where I have been tired and needed to bivy for a few hours.   

I am going bikepacking for a night in northern Wisconsin in a couple of weeks.  I am thinking about bringing an 8x10 tarp and a couple of trekking poles.  I'll also bring a hand axe and small saw (hot dogs and whiskey too).  I would not bring those in an event (I go too slow to call them races).

[Done]

I am thinking of switching the thermarest for an insulated Big Agness air core pad.  It is still packable, but is thicker.

I think that you might freeze your butt off with a Big Agnes Insulated Air Core. Although I can't find an R-factor, they are only rated to 15 degrees. In my opinion, air mattresses are terribly cold in the winter.

[flatfishy]

I'm really intrigued by the comments on using a ccf pad, what temp is it advisable to change from a neo-air to a ccf as i used one in december on my first winter bivvy down to -6deg c/20deg f and thought it was fine.

[Done]

I'm really intrigued by the comments on using a ccf pad, what temp is it advisable to change from a neo-air to a ccf as i used one in december on my first winter bivvy down to -6deg c/20deg f and thought it was fine.

For me, it depends somewhat on the ground that I'm sleeping on. If I have to sleep on snow or something conductive like sand, then I'll use a closed-cell pad if it's below freezing. But if I'm sleeping on duff, moss, or something insulating, then I'll go a little colder.

[bartspedden]

Good thread, it is always interesting to see different views. Regarding sleeping pads, a closed cell pad on the bottom and a therm-a-rest type sleeping pad, even a short one, is a working combination and has been used on arctic expeditions. Less bulky than two closed cell pads.

I've used this setup for years and it has worked very well for me on my winter mountaineering trips.  Two closed cell pads are super comfy though!