Trans North Georgia Adveture trail in winter?

[mmeiser]

Anyone here having experience with the TNGA know if it's doable in the winter?

Looking for winter adventure in the SW appalachians. Will be attempting to take the blue ridge south after christmas (delayed plans) may be doing a lot of hike a bike, may have to jump off and take backroads. Will see.  I noticed the TNGA, looks like my kind of riding, not sure how much snow they get in that area of the appalachians could be quite bad.

[Gapper]

Might be best to stick with the Pinhoti section (140 miles) rather than entire TNGA route for winter unsupported travel. 

[mmeiser]

@gapper, thanks... anyone have any other tips.  I guess I'm going to play it by ear and see how snow is on the way down that way.

[Gapper]

Good luck!  Just be informed the beginning 2/3rds of TNGA is rugged, unmarked and very easy to get lost.  The few gas stations and places to seek food and warmth are off the route and few and far between - with the exception of Mulberry Gap which offers lodging and meals.   If you decide to do it, contact some of last years riders for the tips they can give you.  I can give you names if you can't access them. 

[mmeiser]

Thanks, gapper, I don't think I'll make up my mind for sure until I get down there and take a look at it. It all depends on weather it's rideable or covered in snow. Will be making my way down the parkway (or parallel routes if necissary) and expect it won't be too much more remote... also will be using GPS and probably pick up paper maps of the region once I get into the area.  Already have the GPX on my phone and made a cursory review of the entire route. I have no illusions it'll be easy given the 57,000 or so feet of vertical climbing or even doable end to end given the weather, but I think I'm well geared.

Will be traveling with a double sleeping bag, mylar vapor barrier, golite shangri-la mid, gortex bivy, wood stove (with a splitting knife and 30" bow saw blade) among other things.  Am toying with the idea of leaving my MSR dragonfly at home. I can even improvise a first rate alcohol stove and pick up some HEET along the way if I get impatient with wood.

What I could really use is a kudlik for inside my mid.   Burns for days and enough to warm my tea / coffee and grits in the morning. Know where I can get some whale blubber equivelent?  Ahh... "Whale blubber equivelent", I can see it on store shelves now.

[jhl99]

MM:  I think this trip you are planning is pretty bold.  

I'm suspect that you will try to camp out as much as feasible.  ... when you mention wood stove, I'm pretty sure you are talking about use the stove for cooking only.... have you considered heating a tent or fly type shelter with a small wood stove?  

Here is  trip report of a 'concept':  http://home.windstream.net/JHLange/2010_01_HotTent.html  I built the stove and tent because I couldn't really believe that the comfort people (at the website linked below) claimed that such a rig affords.  Result:  I found that Hot tents are pure luxury.

I'm not suggesting such a heavy setup like mine... but consider something like a Black Diamond pyramid tent with canvas insert and a sheet metal or welding blanket stove jack installed.... and use a roll-up Ti stove pipe and a small woodstove.

A good resource for this type of camping can be found in the forums at this website:  http://wintertrekking.com/  Many of the users tow their stuff on a sled.  A few guys seem to really try to make lightweight stuff.
There are examples where guys have made heated tents from Si Nylon and gotten the weight down pretty low... figure you only need a small pyramid tent for solo..... depending on the circumstances, you might not need a center pole... so that leaves the stove and stove pipe as the unwieldy baggage.

[mmeiser]

MM:  I think this trip you are planning is pretty bold.

I agree, not sure how bold until I get down there. My other plan after doing the parkway if the TNGA is to snowed in is to do the Natchez trace, which should actually be pleasant, but lacks adventure.

I'm suspect that you will try to camp out as much as feasible.  ... when you mention wood stove, I'm pretty sure you are talking about use the stove for cooking only.... have you considered heating a tent or fly type shelter with a small wood stove?   

The stove is purely an outside stove. For what it's worth I think the stoves with pipe, i.e. from titanium goat make a tremendous amount of sense for winter bikepacking since you don't need to supplement them with fuel.  I will also be taking an MSR dragonfly though which should be useable in the tent.

BTW, just got a shangri-la  It's quite possible I may mod it in the future as some mod the Black Diamond pyramid tents to make it compatible with an wood stove with pipe.  However that's the distant future.

Here is  trip report of a 'concept':  http://home.windstream.net/JHLange/2010_01_HotTent.html  I built the stove and tent because I couldn't really believe that the comfort people (at the website linked below) claimed that such a rig affords.  Result:  I found that Hot tents are pure luxury.

A bit heavy for my type of use, but yes, pretty awesome.

I'm not suggesting such a heavy setup like mine... but consider something like a Black Diamond pyramid tent with canvas insert and a sheet metal or welding blanket stove jack installed.... and use a roll-up Ti stove pipe and a small woodstove.

Exactly but not ready for that quite yet.

A good resource for this type of camping can be found in the forums at this website:  http://wintertrekking.com/  Many of the users tow their stuff on a sled.  A few guys seem to really try to make lightweight stuff.

Awesome idea.  I just realized somehting. I could instead of making my bike packable make it sledable!  That's *much* easier.

I could see if the parkway is impassible by bike buying a cheap plastic sled from the nearest store and improvising a pulk (sp?) and some snowshoes. Only problem is once done with the pulk I'd have to discard it since I'd be unable to carry it on the bike.... unless, perhaps one of those roll up sleds will work... they're horrible for sledding I know but might work for a pulk. Especially since we're talking the parkway... and not trail (though the AT does parrallel the northern parkway).

There are examples where guys have made heated tents from Si Nylon and gotten the weight down pretty low... figure you only need a small pyramid tent for solo..... depending on the circumstances, you might not need a center pole... so that leaves the stove and stove pipe as the unwieldy baggage.

Actually I figured one would need a center pole with a stove pipe. I'm not planning on taking one, planning on using trees and paracord, but even if you use a line between two trees to get away from overhead branches you still have problems with stability around the pipe and the potential for burning your line... which would have disasterous consequences if the tent collapsed on your wood stove.

Shangri-la Mid:

1lb10oz of awesome by mmeiser2, on Flickr

Pitching technique sans-pole:

Poles are overrated and heavy by mmeiser2, on Flickr

video of stove:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/mmeiser2/5264444580/

[mmeiser]

Ridiculously simple pulk:

http://lh5.ggpht.com/_l7aHZZ0J40A/TBphTGPiCMI/AAAAAAAAE4s/UEPfOgw2tUo/s800/DSCN9393.jpg

Just cut some holes in the ends and stretch it around your gear.

I think I might have one of those in the front garage.

Only worry is my XXL fargo frame would be to darn wide... hmmm... 24" frame, should be 24", but then add on the stem and handlebar up front.

[jhl99]

MM:

Not sure if the Allegheny Passage (whatever the name of trail is,  for Pete's sake, I live near it and can never keep straight what the name is....)  is still on the itinerary.... came across some pics from last winter using the trail for skiing/snowboarding access.  Something to note.... the wind can whip down the river valley and cause drifts on the trail... the pics where taken near Confluence PA.  FYI there is a pretty long section between Connelsville and Ohiopyle where there is only one intersecting road (bailout point), and it probably isn't plowed.   Another note:  these pics where after a big dump, but the drifting issue would still hold... I know that we skied out where the snow wasn't so deep because the drifts where pushing 30".






Regarding the use of a pole and a chimney.... I don't want to beat a dead horse, but
this guy over at wintertreking.com forums has a really slick setup for using the  the chimney as a center pole, he lists is stove + stovepipe at 2 lbs.

Check out user chimpac's pics in these posts:
http://wintertrekking.com/index.php?topic=681.0
http://wintertrekking.com/index.php?topic=533.0

One thing that is on my mind... if there is snow, or if it rains, there is a good chance that your shoes and socks will get soaked.  How will you dry them out?  I'm thinking that eastern and midwest winters are pretty variable, swings from above freezing to below freezing are common... gathering firewood will require walking it deep snow, general riding may include ridng in slush and/or rain.

I don't think the multi-mode switch to snowshoes and sled hauling bike would be that practical.  For starters, the average speed would drop to 2-3 MPH, comared to 7-9? on the bike, and since there are limited services where you would be snowshoeing, the amount of food that would need to be hauled would be significant.

[mmeiser]

@jhl99, thanks!  Exactly the sort of information I was looking for.

With these dirfts you show it would certainly not be bikeable or even pulk and snowshoe-able. I'm fairly familliar now with the Allegheney. In fact I did it to springs ago as well as once since. This will be my third trip on it. Took the train over to DC, arrived at 12 noon in the middle of downtown, 70+, sunny cherry blossom fest, a few million people.  48 or 72 hours later I ran into a whiteout coming into Cumberland. The weather can be crazy.

Yes it's possible some portions of the trail might not be rideable at all but I'm going to have to take each portion section by section.

BTW, last winter I put in 80 miles biking in a snowstorm that dropped 12-18 inches.  Whent out to do 25 miles with a friend. I was having so much fun i just kept going. Dusk found me chasing dear tracks in 15 inches of snow down a dirt towpath trail on the Maumee river much like the Allegheney.  I've worked up a pretty darn good snow chain solution for this bike and needless to say by the time I hit that portion of the trail I'll be sure to have at east five days of food or about 25000 calories.  With my setup I can litterally camp anywhere, and I'm in no hurry... so I'll take it as it comes and keep one eye on the trail and one eye on the weather.  If a section looks impassible even by hike-a-bike or if a storm looms before I go out on a section I'll not venture into the no-mands land between.

That said I know the connelsville to ohiopyle stretch well. Technically I've already been through there three times. It can be pretty exposed in winter but it is only 17 miles.  Even if a snowstorm rolled up right when I was in the middle of that stretch and I had to wait it out it'd still only take at most a couple days to get out, i.e. on foot, even with improvised snow shoes and sledge.

The biggest problem is tunnels of which I know at least two will be closed January. Even still i think I could hike around them, if not bike around them, and that's going to be far harder then walking on level trail.

I'm in no hurry on this trip. Indeed being out there doing precisely this is the reason I'm going.

== wood stove! ==

I like that stove design. It looks like it can be made very efficient and compact, possibly even broken down for great packing. I cannot use the chimney as a structural support in my shangri-la do its design, but I've got a pretty original method for running a chimney out the top of the door with a removeable chimney shroud.

BTW, some pretty awesome chimney wood stoves over on backpackinglight.com too:
http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/forums/thread_display.html?forum_thread_id=33086

Personally my favorite is the below one designed and made by the original designer and maker of the Kifaru wood stoves.
http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/forums/thread_display.html?forum_thread_id=19345

Problem is in order for this to be practical I'd need to find a local source for extremely lightweight roll stainless steel (or titanium) before christmas. Hard to do on short order.

Update: i was brainstorming, it just so happens that a friend of mine has a few long sections of titanium tubes (industrial scrap), I just hope they're a big enough diameter!   If it's of ample diameter I can just basically improvise one using a large old coffee can that should be good enough to travel with.  It doesn't take much to beat the weight of a MSR Dragonfly with it's fuel bottle and pump.

[6thElement]

This thread gets better and better for those of us spectating

[jhl99]

Those Backpacker Lite dudes have it down.   I don't think I would go with material so thin though (.004").  I would be concerned with burn through of the stove or stove pipe.... that would not be good.

You probably know this, but there are (2) grocery stores in Connelsville within 1/2 mile of the trail, a 'Martins' and I think, a 'Foodland'.  Also there is a bike shop 'Bikes Unlimited' (I think) is right on the trail.  There is also a Super Walmart maybe 1-2 miles S on US119.  119 is a heavily traffic road (4 lanes).
So getting supplies before the 17 mile stretch is not an issue. 

The weather and snow on ground will be critical to the execution of this ride... unfortunately they might be minimally predictable up until probably 2-3 days in advance.

Good point about the tunnels.  Do they really gate them off?  The lights are probably not turned on in the long one out by Sand Patch.

Where is the planned start of this ride?

[mmeiser]

@jhl99: yeah, going to have to pass on the chimney stove for now. That titanium tubing I got a hold of was way to small of a diameter, I'd need time to special order proper materials. No time before the trip.

Ed Tyanich can make sub 3lb heated shelters including woodstove and tent:

http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/forums/thread_display.html?forum_thread_id=19345

Absolutely amazing, but I'll settle for my modified MSR dragonfly (which can be used in the tent) and a 6oz woodstove combination which can only be used outside.

BTW, by ".004" are you referring to the stove pipe?  If so there's no burning through titanium foil. The heat it can withstand is amazing.  If you're talking about the tent fabric... yeah, I'm paranoid too, but Ed and hundreds if not thousands of his and Kifaru tent and stove fans have been using cuben and silnylon tents as heated shelters for years.

As per backpacking light. Their MYOG (make your own gear) forums are killer. Huge source of inspiration. Cannot recommend them enough. I see a few others like the awesome Chris Plesko from this forum on there as well. He's one awesome dude, and you can see the influence in his gear choice for trips like the great divide and his recent completion of the Arizona trail where he had to pack his bike on his back.

As per connelsville, thanks for the info!  I've only ever ridden through that area. Never stopped. Will make it a point to take my time this time and visit the bike shop if it's open.

As per the weather I agree, I may have to resort to the backroads in that area which can be quite hilly, but at least plowed. Won't know until I get there.  Indeed... the weather variable does worry me... only a fool wouldn't be. However I get a lot of pleasure out of dealing with ridiculous weather conditions. I once got up at 4am so I could test out my gear by rideing in rain and 45mph winds in 50 degree weather. After I finally turned the corner on it the temp droped (as expected) and over the next two hours turned into six inches of fluffy snow with the temp dropping to 15 degrees ambient and about 5 with windchill. Driving rainstorm switching over to freezing rain switching over to powder and freezing temps. That's about the most dangerous weather one can be out in, but I stayed dry and, took it easy, got in about 80 miles and called it an early day in my favorite playground the Waterloo and Pinkney State park areas here in SW michigan. Good times. The right equipment is essential.

As per the tunnels that close, there are at least two up by the eastern divide.  There is also the Paw Paw tunnel which is the longest canal tunnel in the world, but I don't think they close that though it'll be extremely tretcherous even with my improvised studed tires and metal cleated boots. (It'll be beautiful too).  I think the Brush tunnel (Yes Brush is the name) in particular right near frostburg is completely, 100% closed. It's quite large, huge in fact, but doors close up every inch. Absolutely no access.  I think it's to cut down on the buildup of ice inside. They just completed a multi-million dollar restoration of it a few years back.  BTW, there's an awesome B&B / campground / lodge / breakfast joint right at the top of the hill as you're coming into frostburg.  I spent the night there recovering from the whiteout I hit in Cumberland coming back from DC a couple springs ago. Also a great bike shop in cumberland. I love the GAP (great allegheny passage).

BTW, the planned start of this ride is right after christmas.  I'm just taking the time to dial in my gear. At this moment I'm fussing over Google's new caching features for their map/gps app for Android. It'll be a key tool, but the caching features don't cut it for back country navigation. It's simply not going to be useable in large areas of the GAP and parkway.  I'm planning on using and application called "backcountry navigator".  It allows controlled downloading and precaching of USGS topo maps and many other sources, basically works like your standard Garmin. You can completely turn off all the wireless functionality. Pure GPS.  Will also be carring a paper map and can always pick up local ones as I get into a new area. Since I love the backroads I require detailed area maps.

The only part that really worries me btw is between here (SE michigan) and the cuyahoga valley.  It's wide open farm country for about 180 miles. Completely unprotected and wind swept. It could be blowing hard out of the East, but it can just as easily blow hard out of the east. Still days are few and far between in Dec/January. I much prefer the hills and mountains where at least there's always a place to roll out of the weather. 

Once I get to the cuyahoga I can relax. Will follow the beautiful cuyahoga rail trail south through akron.  Which lol... has been the bane of my existence.  I've twice now failed to get through akron on the bike trail. That city scares me... or maybe it's scared of me. I once stoped to ask a girl directions and she was so frightened she practically ran away. LOL.  But I didn't have my secrete weapon then. Google bike maps is absolutely brilliant in such situations.

So, on the cuyahoga valley trail which is now some 60 miles long (though discontinuous in akron) they now have 3 or 4 permit free hike-a-bike campgrounds. These are specifically for overnight hikers and bikers and I look forward to taking full advantage of them. Will follow the canal trail to its end, then hop (80+ miles) on over to the Panhandle trail to the Montour trail which loops south through some lovely suburbs south of Pitts.  I was more then suprised with how beautiful it was when I first road it.

Then on to Allegheney Passage (GAP) 200-250 miles to Harper's ferry, then about 45 miles of backroads up to the start of skyline drive in Front Royal and down 600+ miles of skyline drive and the blue ridge parkway.

Piece of cake.  LOL.

Of course the whole trip might turn into an endless detour on backroads somewhere between McKeesport and Front Royal which could take a week or more, and then the skyline and parkway might not even be passable... but I'm cool with that.

My object on this trip contrary to every other trip is to forget about miles/day and just enjoy the backroads and stay as far away from traffic as possible. I'm planning on chasing a lot of deer tracks on this trip and plan on spending at least a few still moonlit nights chasing deer tracks in the snow down the GAP and parkway.  And I'm hoping for for at least one bluebird powder day making fresh tracks under a blue sky on the parkway... that's the dream anyway.

That said I can't wait to see what fowl twist mother nature throws into my plans. I revel in the adversity.

Also... that I'm writing all this means I'm way, way to antsy to be out riding. To much talking. To much time. I wish I could just leave torrow, but I have to stick around till after christmas so I can see my two new newphews on their first christmas.    I love biking but it always seems to take 3rd place to family and work.

[mmeiser]

From wikipedia:

"Interestingly, Shenandoah National Park has one of the densest populations of black bears documented within the U.S., although these bears stay deep in the forest"

Sure they do.   And they'll all be hibernating in January too.

Right?

[mmeiser]

Just a note in conclusion in case anyone stumbles on this thread, I did not end up doing the TNGA route this last winter. Instead I ended up riding 1500+ miles on my January tour including the GAP (Great Allegheny Passage), Skyline Drive and most of the Blueridge Parkway. Epic/awesome ride. The weather was spectacular with only two snowstorms taking me off the route/delaying me for 24 hours or less. One on the parkway, one one the GAP up near Rockwood, PA.  Other than that the entire route was bikeable with a little hike-a-bike here and there. Averaged about 50 miles a day. Camped most nights with campfires in designated camping spots.  Met a tremendous amount of interesting real local people since it was the off season. Skyline Drive services were non-existent. Parkway services were actually very good as there are a whole lot of communities along it.  Traffic was practically non-existent as much of the route was closed to cars. As were bugs. No bugs.

Some days along the GAP right up near the divide only hit a high of 15 degrees, but mostly it was you're usual 25-50 degrees. Interestingly the worst weather was between Ashville, NC, and my final destination Charleston, SC. It rained nearly non-stop for three straight days.  Best weather was the last weekend on the parkway coming into Asheville. Two days of sunny 65 degree weather up on the parkway. Awesome last weekend of January.

Still dreaming of doing the TNGA at some point. Indeed the Sept 3rd race date this year sounds like the ideal time. Fall in the Southern Appalachians = ideal. That said my next trip will probably be the western Divide in October.

[BikePacker]

Has anyone ridden this route recently? Are the Que Sheets fairly viable? Thx. This route is a dream come true for me if it is even near 'functional.'  If it is not, I want to work with others to help bring it up to an operational status.

[trebor]

Has anyone ridden this route recently? Are the Que Sheets fairly viable? Thx. This route is a dream come true for me if it is even near 'functional.'  If it is not, I want to work with others to help bring it up to an operational status.

The cue sheets are nearly spot on thanks to Dave Muse. They even tell you went to dismount for a 1 mile hike only section of the trail. This route is awesome with relatively easy resupply everywhere east of Dalton. West of Dalton, well, it's tough out that way.

There is a complete and accurate GPX file as well.

I rode the inaugural year. Stellar stuff.