It's On! Apache 200 and White Mtns - Big Lake Epic Stages

[AZTtripper]

Just back after a long drive home.

Jeff nice job on the route I did skip a few pieces but over all it was a lot of fun.

Marshall I think the CX waypoints were meant to signify cross county travel ie no trail. Steve and I were getting a little tired at that point and I wasn't expecting to go bushwacking so I was letting it piss me off. Then I looked at the GPS base map and saw that there was a road that went straight through no bushwacking required. We choose to go back and take the road. I think I figured it out when we found the huge piles of trees. My guess is when Jeff went out to scout they were logging in that area so he had to come up with a by pass. But with no active logging going on we rode around the pile no problem. So Jeff did I get that right or were you just messing with us? Not that that's a bad thing.

The only other issue came at the 1st stream there wasn't a drop of water any where near the waypoint. Though it all worked out thanks to the base map I don't think we found the actual tank shown but we did find a shallow grassy pond.

Good job with the arrows they did help keep us on track or off track so to speak. I bailed shortly after that taking a short cut over to Big Lake then the high way down to Mexican Hay Lake. The South Fork trail was great but after that my bleeding cheeks would only stand for pavement riding and I did a lot of standing on the highway back.

Jeff good job on your first course layout it could use a couple of tweaks here and there but then I might be spoiled by Scott's courses. I am just guessing that you don't have a PHD in computer mapping so we won't fault you for a few minor errors.

I clearly haven't been riding enough for this but I am glad I got to do what I did and look forward to hitting the course again in the future.

[Marshal]

posted up a few pics here
http://desertmountainride.blogspot.com/2010/09/apache-200.html

[tRoy]

Some pics and captions here.

[rhino]

where was the photo from Dripping Vat Springs (actual spring), in relation to the cabin.  I just used the water flowing from the pipe in the concrete flume.  I hadn't decided to give up at that point yet, so I didn't look around too much.

[tRoy]

Rhino, the D.V spring about a 100 feet just SE from the Cabin at the top of the meadow.  Right where it is marked on the topo map. 
Where was the concrete flume?

[rhino]

The concrete box and pipe was about 50' from the cabin door on the fence line leading right into the meadow.  The flowing pipe made it a breeze to fill up bottles while resting on the concrete wall. I'm pretty sure the sign said Dripping Vat Springs.  Maybe not though?  I'll try to post a picture.

[out_there]

I guess I'm the only one who hasn't chimed in yet. My first multi-day ride.  Got to see a wide variety of the area.  Especially liked it around Parson Springs.  Unfortunately did the Overland at night and it wasn't so easy to follow in places.  like to see what it's like in the daylight.  I made it to the Panorama TH but my back was protesting too much so i bailed. Ended up w/ about 178m - so close...
Thanks for putting it together, Jeff.

[Marshal]

I guess I'm the only one who hasn't chimed in yet. My first multi-day ride.  Got to see a wide variety of the area.  Especially liked it around Parson Springs.  Unfortunately did the Overland at night and it wasn't so easy to follow in places.  like to see what it's like in the daylight.  I made it to the Panorama TH but my back was protesting too much so i bailed. Ended up w/ about 178m - so close...
Thanks for putting it together, Jeff.

I can understand skipping the last section of ST.  I deliberately started my ITT from the Panorama TH.  That way I got to enjoy the cool single track while I was fresh enough to really enjoy it and got to finish with some easy FS roads and a bit of pavement.  Doing so fit in quite well with my 'relax and enjoy the last big ride of the yr' philosophy

[DesertDog]

Hey folks,

Taken a while, but I've been on the road since the event weekend.  Even came back with another route/event for 2011.  I tried to send a reply to this thread a couple weeks back in SLC.  Let me compose the post, then wouldn't let it actually post!  Anyway...

Thanks to everyone who came out to try the course.

Troy - Congratulations on setting the course time.
Marshall - Good job taking the 2nd shot at the course.
Rhino - Have to get your trackfile.  You may have set the time for the WMTS Enduro course?

On weather and hydration: 
I thought conditions were great.  And, believe it or not, I did the Big Lake Enduro course as a 2-day on only 56oz of water.  Other than that, I only filtered a bit under 40oz for camp coffee and food Saturday night and then bought a cup of coffee at the store on Sunday morning.  But, I was sure glad the cooler kept my last 2 beers cold and ready for me at the end of the ride!

Water sources:
Outside of the lakes, the water sources can seemingly vanish, just like many other AZ areas.  Comes with the territory.  At least it seems that the springs were still running good enough though?

Cross-country sections:
Yes, the XC1 and 2 waypoints were meant to designate open terrain travel (I thought I put that in the course notes, but I didn't).  That section had been cut and they didn't reinstate the road, so it became a point-to-point section.  There will actually be 4 different open terrain areas on the course next year. 

Again, sorry about the Burro Mountain challenge.  That's been rerouted.  You guys didn't really want to keep that in the course did you?

Night riding:
Yes, a couple more hours of daylight would be good.  The Overland trail almost isn't in a number of spots and can fool you even in the daylight.  I don't even like the thought of trying to go down the South Fork steps in the dark!

The course:
Thanks for the kind words on the overall course.  I felt the layout would work, just needed some real riders to prove it out.  Seems it may be a little tougher course than I thought it would be though.  Hey, it's a 3-day ride for me even if I'm in the shape I know I can be.  But, I really thought, still do and would like to see someone destroy this course in 24hr!  As the sport grows, who knows!



The 2011 Apache:

So, I guess you guys and a few more are ready for another round next year?

The course next year will have more dirt, less pavement and a couple extra open xc sections with Squirrel Spring being on the course.  There is also a section of Overland that disappears and will be marked as open xc next year.  Other than correcting the Burro Mtn routing, the rest should be the same.  I have been thinking of routing the start thru the Osprey trail, instead of the road and first half of Ice Cave though, just not sure yet.

Any issues or fixes that come to mind, let me know.

So, what about doing this as originally planned on the 2nd weekend of June, two weeks before the Dixie?
2 extra hours of light per day and move the start up to 6am.

If keeping something in September, it would probably be better to do a WMTS and Big Lake Enduro stages weekend for roughly 75 miles each day.   Late-season stages, a warmup for the Coconino?

[Marshal]

A few post Apache 200 thoughts:

1st, thank you DesertDog for setting up the route!!  Doing up a route is a lot more work than some might think.

There were lots of places to get water, more than I expected just not always where I expected them.  I got caught short water wise on day 1, but it was more of a laughable thing rather than a real concern, stumbling around in the dark, looking for a water hole near the “Stream1” waypoint. Ha, I might even have taken your name in vain a couple of times. But maybe more waypoints could be added to the route file along with qualifiers about probability

I liked the general time/date, this is a great time to be up in the AZ mtns at the end of the yr

Not that it matters but I do not think you will see this route done in under 24 hr, especially if you add more dirt & open terrain.

Personally I really really liked your mix of ST, forest service type road, gravel roads and pavement.  The mix of terrain/effort was ideal for me.  This is a route that will challenge you if choose to shoot for a fast time or one you can relax, kick back a bit and just plain enjoy like I did.

More dirt might push this route to a true 3 day event, making it harder for the mid pack racer to schedule.  Personally I would be very pushed, even with my best all out race effort, to do the current route in two days.

You can endlessly adjust the route but imo I think for the 2011 route, just put the planned Squirrel Spring section in and call it good. (even the Burro Mountain challenge should stay, just for the ‘fun’ factor)

Thanks again for the route, I recommend it to any and all the backpackers and multi-day racers!

[tRoy]

x2
yeah sub 30 seems possible... but sub 24?  That would take a hired gun.
Yeah good times on this route I had. May do this again next spring...
thank you, T

[rhino]

...Rhino - Have to get your trackfile.  You may have set the time for the WMTS Enduro course?...

How did I complete an Enduro Course?  I set out to do the full 200, and bailed at the first intersection and biked the remaining trail back to to the start.  I did ride the designated trail according to GPS back to the Truck.  I'll send you my GPS track and you can see what I rode, probably only around 66-70 miles or so.

[DesertDog]

First intersection only?...then you didn't.  If you would have done the loop thru the open terrain/xc area and around to the Land of the Pioneers trail, that would have done it.  The shorter WMTS Enduro course is ~75 miles.

Well, I guess there's something for someone to shoot for!


Sigh...2 months on the trail and back in Vegas. 
Now if I could only shake this PTD (Post-Trail Depression)!

...and stitch together the pieces of my Oregon monster!

[DesertDog]

x2
yeah sub 30 seems possible... but sub 24?  That would take a hired gun.

Like the Tootsie Pop question, the world may never know.

However, I think there are some around here that could do it.  The thing is, who has the motivation to attempt it?  Just don't believe there is anyone who does.  Now, if you go back a couple when Dave Harris was pursuing, and won, the SS 24hr title, maybe he could have done it?

Like I said though, as the sport grows, and hopefully it will, you could just see some young pup full of P&V that may just do it!?