Route finding/making question re "private" property

[mbeardsl]

What is the proper way to deal with "private" property either when making routes pre-ride or running into unforseen issues while riding.  I specifically do not mean property that I would describe as residentially private i.e. a house on a tract of land with no commercial slant to it.  I say "private" to encompass just about anything else - like loosely gated communities, roads that say closed to motor vehicles but not bikes or walking, church property, school property, etc.

Specifically I ask this because I had recently written a GPS track using Topofusion and Google/Bing/etc but inevitably ran into a few problems when I drove two sections today that I wrote to get around hiking only section of a long trail. 

The first one was a pavement section that passes over a mountain and turns to rough 4x4 track on the other side.  Google didn't show a street view for the area and satellite wasn't clear enough to see the details.  When I drove it today I was stopped by a gated golf course community that wasn't manned by people or cameras.  I could have easily walked around the gate.  If I were riding alone I could ride around and claim I lived there, coming home from a long ride.  Bad idea?  With a couple riders that would be more difficult.

The second was a pavement section that turns to gravel to again pass over a mountain.   On one side there is a gate that says "no parking" and "no trespassing".  Again, could easily walk around and the road leads to a tv/radio antenna at the top of the mountain a few miles further up.  I would be more uncomfortable from an ethical standpoint crossing this gate but I guarantee it would be far less noticed than the previous example as nobody travels that road.  On the other side of the mountain it is pavement but there is a similar gate a few miles from the top.  All it says is "no motor vehicles" and has a hiking trailhead right outside the gate.  This one seems very ambiguous.

So, what's the rule or best practice?  Find the owner somehow and ask permission for X date?  Don't cross no matter what so as to not ruin it for the rest of the population?  First rule of fight club?

[AZTtripper]

I don't think your going to come up with a one size fits all answer here.

In the past I have heard that you can always access public land, is there public land that you are accessing? A rancher here in AZ told me he was allowed to stop motorized traffic from access but not not non moto.

On the Coconino 250 course we go thru an electric gate, the owner is ok with it as it would take a lot of bikes to wear out a road. I can see why he doesn't want people driving up his driveway, he couldn't have given the guys shit when they first ran into him, seemed like he was impressed enough with the route to yes.

I do know of a hiker route that does some bushwacking on private ranch land but a biker doing the route was able to fine better road routes instead.

Gated communities who knows the easiest thing to do might be to try and find a home owner who thinks your route is worthy. Might even convince management.

If the land lays between you and public open space and there isn't a realistic way around I would argue for non moto access.

If this is just to be a one time trip and your not going to post up the route just go for it. Fight Club style.

[sam.pederson]

I do it on a case by case basis. It all depends on the trail.

Here in Santa Cruz, some of our most popular trails say "closed" and "no trespassing". Those are always fair game to me in my bikepacking routes. However, any time I see these, I reroute around them:

1) Multiple repeated signs (very clear rather than no motorized vehicles)
2) Barbed wire

When it comes to gated residential communities, I consider those fair game. I've ridden some very long fire roads 20 miles and seen nobody around, much less anyone to tell me not to be there.

Also, depending on the sign, if it's vague, fair game for a bicyclist who is passing through, will leave no trace etc.

[mbeardsl]

Thanks for the input.  I should have clarified this is a course that would be posted - Palmetto Trail in SC, nothing exists for bikers yet for the whole route, don't want to alienate us from other groups by breaking the rules.

The gated community I'm not as concerned with I guess, although this would be a posted route so not sure I want to encourage it.  The reroute is ok (5.5 mile pavement climb from 1k to 1.7k), but the original I had in mind would have been so much cooler (5.5 mile climb from 1k to 3k, then 1.2 mile very rough gravel descent to 2.2k, then 2.8 mile pavement descent to 1.7k).

The second one is a bit puzzling.  The hiking trail I am trying to replace with pavement/roads actually runs along and/or ON this same road.  If you can walk it legally as part of a trail I can't understand not being able to ride it even if access points say no.  I really to find the person in charge of the park/trail and ask but just about zero leads on that.

Maps below show the original no-beta route (second one includes hiking) in blue, the "hopeful" route in green, and where I drove it in red.  I may just need to carry or push the bike through the hike to not have so much pavement.  Again, need to make sure that's allowed somehow.

[AZTtripper]

The second one is a bit puzzling.  The hiking trail I am trying to replace with pavement/roads actually runs along and/or ON this same road.  If you can walk it legally as part of a trail I can't understand not being able to ride it even if access points say no.  I really to find the person in charge of the park/trail and ask but just about zero leads on that.

There's a similar access point for a trail here in Tucson the paved road up the mountain is a walking only route, about 200 feet in on the left there is trail that people ride. The guy who showed me had us walk the paved part he said he did it all of the time and no one seemed to mind. I guess it depends on why the road is closed to bikes. In this case having bikes coming down this thing, it's old and narrow, with other traffic would be nuts.

I should think it would suck to walk very far at all on pavement. Even if you could get permission to walk the bike thru people would just ride it and then you could then loose access after working to get it. I guess if the alternate route is a super busy road with no shoulder.

 

[mbeardsl]

That's my fear - "Come and do what I did, but be sure to walk these sections" would be fine for everyone but the one guy that ruins it for everybody else.  The signs don't say no bikes, they just say "No Trespassing - Violators will be prosecuted" at one end on the gravel road with a gate with 3 locks and the other end actually says what you see below so maybe not an issue at all for that end:

[evdog]

We have all manner of private property issues in SoCal.  When deciding to go/no go I always try to assess risk based on the situation: type of private property, likelihood of getting busted, and how aggressive the owner is likely to be in enforcing their property rights.  If I do proceed, I try to get through quickly, I am respectful of things while there, and try to fly under the radar - best that no one ever know I was there.

Land with a private residence is a universal no-go because individuals can be very militant about keeping outsiders off.  It is their personal space, they do not want you there, and there is a good chance you will get busted.  A huge property or multiple homes is less of an intrusion but generally, unless I know a trail is widely used by the public, I try to respect individuals' private property and find an alternate route. 

I have much less issue going on private property owned by a corporation or a community/HOA because people don't have as much stake in keeping you out if when is not their own personal land.  HOA property is no one's personal space, they are used to sharing it with the other owners, and there is a good chance they won't know that you are not meant to be there.  If you get in and out, don't loiter or call attention to yourself, you may not even be noticed. 

Commercial land is similar, though any staff who see you will likely know you do not belong there.  Some employees might be a dick if they spot you, but lots are indifferent as you are not their problem if you do not appear to be a threat to company property or resources.  Depends on the type of land too.  Where there are safety or security concerns people are more likely to be vigilant and aggressive keeping you away.  Watersheds/reservoirs and active logging areas come to mind.  Again being respectful and not calling attention to yourself can get you a long way. 


Sounds like you have been thoughtful in how you are approaching this.  Since you have identified alternate routes around the private property it may be best to include those rather than your original planned route, wherever it is posted publicly.  Whether you or others go through the private property is up to each individual, but at least you would not be sending everyone there.  In my experience, people who put in the time and effort to research the route and come up with the private property alternative themselves are more likely to act respectfully and not cause problems on their way through. 

Best of luck with your ride!

[dave54]

Too many variables. 

Public land agency on either side may have a right of way across the private land, especially if it is a public road.  It may be private road, and the landowner has granted access to the public agency (in exchange, for example, cost sharing on maintenance).  It may be posted no trespassing, but the landowner does not care about non-moto and wants exclusion only for moto (common for private timberlands around here).  Legally, the landowner cannot differentiate access like that, but there are ways to do it.

Poaching is always possible, please consider the ethics before making that choice.  We want more access, not less.  Be a considerate neighbor and ask permission if not sure.  That pays dividends in future negotiations with the landowner.

If you do gain permission to cross, make sure you not do anything to harm the owners interest.  Do not spook his livestock, leave ruts on or off road, make a campfire, or complain about how he manages his land.  If anything looks amiss (section of broken fence, tree down across the road, dead livestock, etc) call and let him know as a courtesy.