2011 AZTR and 300 planning thread

[Marshal]

I was sort of wishfully hoping someone would have a link to some official doc that specifically mentions ‘disassembled bikes’.  I hate the idea of reaching the S Rim and getting shut down by someone having a bad day and making an arbitrary regulation interpretation.

I guess plan A looks least likely to get complicated, time my arrival and just thru hike and keep low on the radar.  However do I like the idea of getting a legal camping permit for Cottonwood.  This is actually part of strategy B to get me to UT faster.  But I do not want to inadvertently create waves at the BCO. (8-5 hrs bty) Of course I can see the logic in not going out of the way to mention the AZTR as an event.  Better to just say I am ‘doing’ the Arizona Trail if asked. 

But Phantom Ranch could be a backup option.  I found this:

A backcountry permit is NOT required for people staying in Phantom Ranch dorms or cabins
http://www.grandcanyonlodges.com/lodging-704.html  However I could find nothing indicating a PR lodge desk that opens before 8:00am?

[AZTtripper]

I doubt there's anything official all I know is Scott called and talked with the superintendent personally back in 05. He said as long as no wheels touch the ground we are ok. It's not Wilderness down there so that restriction doesn't apply thankfully. Seems like they are starting to see more of us 3 that I know of last year. The only one I heard of getting hassled was the guy late in the season and that sounded minor. In some ways it would be great to get to the N Rim later when it's open, for food if nothing else. But the timing would be tough as it's hard to get camping then unless you hiked through in a day of course.

Prices seem to have gone up I can't remember exactly how much everything was but as I recall lunch to go was $10 now they are $12.39 why not just $12.50 but what ever. I got two last time and wished I had 3 or 4 but in hind site they aren't worth it. Though as Scott said it's food you don't have to carry down.

It's a tough call I can't see anyone giving you grief at the BCO as long as you don't get pissy if they say sorry it's all full. Can't see Cottonwood being full but you never know. Can't see any one from this group getting pissy (and certainly no one currently on board) but you never know. Obviously anyone who makes it that far is going to be tired and anxious to finish so I could see someone in the future feeling stressed and getting frustrated. That was kind of what I got from the late season report.

Once you have a permit or reservation I can't see any NPS staff "just having a bad day" giving you grief but well they are people too so anything is possible. As for the one mule skinner who gave me grief maybe they too are getting used to seeing wheels on peoples backs. One thing I had considered was going into their office and getting a schedule. Of the two groups that passed me the first was at a wide open spot. The second came around a corner and there wasn't much room. I basically had to throw my gear up on a ledge and jump up there myself to make room. I did all of that way before they got to me but I still got the stink talk. Though the young girl at the back of the train gave me a nice smile (yeah I am old and married so that made my day). So if you knew how many mule trains to expect and what the timing was it might be possible to figure out where to take a break and just wait them out.

I can't find any thing about the PR desk either but I remember it was early and I did my best to be there when they opened but was a few minutes late. I had gotten there the day before and had a room with bath next door (price there seems up as well oh well). Lots of logistics to work out up there and the timing is going to be key. Possibly getting there in the afternoon and getting a handle on things. Getting to the BCO in the afternoon when there aren't a bunch of people standing in line might help. But then you either have to pay to stay inside or ride back out of the park. There is some camping (car camper sites) west of the highway along the dirt road near the Tusayan TH.  

Hope this helps more then confuses things.
Tim

[krefs]

Talking with people at a few different national parks now, I've been given the impression that carrying disassembled bikes is fine unless there's a written rule against bikes on the trails. Canyonlands has an outright ban on bikes on all non-motorized trails in the park. A few years back, they gave a backcountry/river permit combo to some guys who were going to bike in on jeep roads, packraft, and hike out with their bikes on their back. The park didn't have a rule against bikes at the time, so they authorized the trip. Then rangers saw tire tracks that showed the group clearly rode their bikes out on the hiking trails. The result? The park officially changed their rules and they now have a clause somewhere in their regulations about bikes not being allowed in any form off motorized trails. I was also informed by someone in their backcountry office earlier this year that carrying a bike on your back was likely to damage vegetation along the trails, but that's a debate for another time and place.

It seems I've been sidetracked. Um, I guess my point was that the GC seems to have nothing against carrying bikes in their rules, but that could quickly change if just a single person ignores the rules. Maybe I wasn't sidetracked afterall...

[krefs]

I have a question that I've been wondering about since before the race last spring and never actually resolved. Is there a water spigot on the outside of the store on Old Spanish Trail NW of X9 Ranch Road? I imagine that the store doesn't have particularly long operating hours.

[AZTtripper]

Not sure about the store but I doubt it or if they do it's likely the kind with a removable key/knob. I can't find any info on line (not surprising) I could possibly get someone who lives near there to go and check it out. But I have to wonder who besides Kurt could skip the other resupply points in Tucson.

As far as the off topic I mean on topic parks and carrying subject. I haven't been to Canyonlands sucks that one group ruined it for the rest. The Big Ditch has also had it's share of transgressors. After the Spine Crew went and got themselves busted Lee sent an email to a friend who works up there. Didn't sound like they were going to hold the actions of one group against the rest. Hopefully that will continue. Hopefully those of us who make the trip for what ever reason at what ever pace will continue to do things the right way. Having done the road ride 215 miles around the canyon I don't want to have to go that way again. Though I think they did widen the road since 04 but it's still a lot of pavement and a lot of traffic. I would actually say that if you take 3 days (7 miles a day) to hike the canyon it's easier then the road ride around. Not to mention safer.

Off topic again I wonder how long it would take Kurt to do the road ride version of the AZT. I never thought anyone could ride the real trail (even with the snow detours) as fast as he did. One day at a trail event at Sahuarita road we were all eating lunch after. Someone heard Scott's name and said you are the guy who did the whole thing in 7 days. "He cheated" I said and Scott agreed taking roads and skipping the ST is just not the same challenge. Last year I caught up with Ian "our man in the north" on the Elephant Head downhill he said something to the effect of "how did Scott get to Tucson so fast in 05" "he cheated" I said "he skipped around the Canelo's and rode the highway on the other side of the mountain". It's not really cheating I guess it's just not the same. The distance might be similar but the lack of Hike a Bike alone would make a big difference IMO. Back before this site when we were still discussing this on MTBR. Dave C made a comment that he thought there would be riders who would rather do the road ride race then the ST "true to the AZT" race. My thinking was as long as they acknowledge the difference it wouldn't bother me. I also thought that if there were such a race it should perhaps start in the North like the book "How to Skip the AZT" was written. Starting in the Fall would make it more likely to get to ride the Kiabab stuff. Getting the Canyon out of the way when your fresh, might ruin you for the rest or be a good thing to have over and done with. Skipping over all of the HAB stuff in the south should I think make things go pretty fast in the end.

[krefs]

Huh. I was just thinking, hypothetically of course, that if someone happened to ride really fast to Tucson and miss the store opening, getting water without straying off course too far might be challenging. If anyone passes by the Rincon store, poke around if you wouldn't mind and see if there's a spigot anywhere around. What about the BLM building out at the end of Broadway? It's not too far off course if I remember correctly...

You'll never know how long it'd take me to ride the 'road version' of the AZT. The singletrack is far too much fun.

[AZTtripper]

Huh, hypothetically of course as in some superhuman mutant who comes to shatter the current record on the 300/750. Hypothetically of course does this superhuman even need water.

A couple of us are thinking about doing a Reddington to Molino overnighter early next month it's out of the way but I was thinking of picking up the end of Broadway section just to skip the narrow Tanque Verde road so we can check the BLM office at that time. I'll put out a local request to look for a spigot at the Rincon Store.

[krefs]

Thanks, Tim! This hypothetical person does indeed need water...quite a bit of it. And roughly 6000 calories to get from Patagonia to Summerhaven I'd imagine.

[AZTtripper]

Wow, that's a big stretch to pull off with out a food resupply. A local from Vail who is hoping to do his first 300 this year stops by the Rincon store often he'll check it out most likely this weekend.

[ScottM]

Hey guys,

Catching up on a lot here.  First, there are a couple other options for water in Tucson if the store doesn't have any after hours.  #1 Saguaro Visitors center.  No more that 0.05 miles off route, there are drinking fountains and bathrooms.  The gate may be closed early, but it's easily ridden around and I'm sure the water would be on.  #2 the BLM office at the end of Broadway.  I am pretty sure they have hoses/spigots out front.

Rincon store opens at 0530.  Just take it 1% easier on the first 20 hours, Kurt, and you'll be fine. 

I'm glad Tim is here to repeatedly keep me honest on the supposed 7-day traverse of the AZT.  Now that Kurt has the real AZT record it should be less necessary to remind everyone of my cheating.   I will say this, though -- I rode... somewhere between 50 and 80 miles of AZT that Kurt did not!  They are easier miles of ST, no doubt, compared to all Kurt did and I didn't, but it isn't as easy as saying I took the road and he took the trail.  As Tim and I well know, there are no 2 trips on the trail that are the same.  Well, maybe there will be once we have multiple finishers in the AZT race (last year 1 finisher + 1 ITT).

In other news, we may be able to continue further on the AZT in the Rincon Valley, to Hope Camp, then come out on Camino Loma Alta.  This will add some miles to the route, but also some sweet trail, so it'll require some thought (and require some recon as well).

Glad to see a lot of planning and scheming for this year.  Bikepacking season is just around the corner here in AZ.  I can't wait for the weather to start warming up...

[AZTtripper]

I figured I could get you to come out of your shell at some point ha ha.

Obviously there is no easy way to ride from border to border road, trail or any blend of the two is going to be a great ride.

I was just thinking that the VC might be an option. And the store being open at 5:30 is a plus for those wanting to get an early start. What ever day they get there. Staying on the ST to Hope would be great I wasn't sure if the Park people would give us the old 2 track out of there.

Certainly no two rides have been the same until last year and no one year had seen so many riders all in one year. Two racers, two S-N tours and then 3 riders on a N-S tour. That's a huge jump from the previous years as far as I am aware of. And it is irrelevant how much ST non racers choose to do along the way. And for the racers it's all about doing the same course as other riders that year. It will be nice to get more ST like the new White Canyon section but there will always be detours like the trail closure on the Kiabab.

Yep it's right around the corner should be an interesting spring on the AZT.

[Marshal]

Anyone know where the spigots at Boyce Thompson Arboretum are?  Would they be accessible after hours? And does the new trail to Superior go by the Arboretum?

can someone please tie my shoe...................

[krefs]

Rincon store opens at 0530.  Just take it 1% easier on the first 20 hours, Kurt, and you'll be fine. 

Ha! I thought it opened at 7, so 5:30 is way better. And I forgot about the water at the Saguaro VC...I bet there might even be warm water in the bathrooms. Hot breakfast! No need to conserve that 1%

[AZTtripper]

Here's a screen shot with the AZT LOST and the BTA.

Scott has the track and will be making it available on line if any body wants it sooner shoot me a PM with an email address and I can send it that way.

As I recall the BTA has a big iron gate on the front entrance I don't think you can get in there after hours.

Looks like they are open 8 to 5 not sure if it shows up on the screen shot but it looks like there might be a road off of the LOST that comes out right near BTA.

I can only tie your shoe if we are both out on the trail and the same time and only if we don't prearrange it. I guess that would be called shoe magic 

Also you might like to look into this http://www.pr.state.az.us/parks/both/kids.html

[pro_out]

" Also you might like to look into this http://www.pr.state.az.us/parks/both/kids.html "                                                                                                                  Are you insinuating that Marshall needs to work on his Girl Scout badges

[AZTtripper]

" Also you might like to look into this http://www.pr.state.az.us/parks/both/kids.html "                                                                                                                  Are you insinuating that Marshall needs to work on his Girl Scout badges

Well maybe or if nothing else maybe they can help with the shoe tying thing

[Marshal]

Thanks for the info on the Arboretum.  Also I see (after checking out the Girl Scout bonus badges) they have a gift shop with snacks (and cold drinks I bet).  And if you leave the route at Hewitt Station Rd it is only about 1 mile off route.  Every time I have reached Picketpost TH I have been low or out of water.  So time of day allowing, I can see a quick detour to the Arboretum before heading on to Apache Junction.  Much better than going all the way into Superior.

So I guess the shoe is tied----thanks

[AZTtripper]

See I knew that bonus badge would come in handy somehow.

I haven't been to the BTA in a while but yeah pretty sure they have candy and soda there. And it is pretty close to the course. At that point you aren't that far from AJ for a real resupply anyway so that might just be the best quick stop choice.

[dream4est]

The snow pack at Mormon Mtn. and Happy Jack is up 18-20 inches or so. They got hit on 20th and 21st it looks like. So maybe this year could still have similar snow detours as last year. Maybe some heavy snow in March?

At least we know Scott will nail the forecast and have any fire or snow detours dialed,  ready and mapped out like last year.

[Marshal]

On my way to NV for work I took a small detour from Flag

Yes that is the trail just before M Lk