2011 AZTR Updates / Discussion Thread

[krefs]

Skipping an incredibly windy day in Kansas was probably a wise move. I encountered similar winds down there last spring, and my estimates for how long it would take to get to the Coconino Rim kept going up as my speed dropped. After a couple hours averaging ~4 mph, I was about ready to throw in the towel and bivy for the night even before dark, but as the sun set, the winds died down enough that I kept on trucking. It sure was demoralizing, though, and there's not much down there to hide behind to get out of the gusts.

Next up for Max is a mix of fast 2-tracks and agonizingly slow, loose, and seldom-ridden singletrack before the fun trails along the Coconino Rim.

[AZTtripper]

I missed the call but apparently Max hit some snow on the north side of the peaks.

Looks like he's into the faster section of the Tusayan bike route. He should be in Tusayan shortly.

Likely we will see him start into the canyon tomorrow.

[ScottM]

Call in from Max at the backcountry office.  No permits on a Tuesday, for Cottonwood?  Nutty.  He isn't too happy about taking another day off, but wants to play by the rules and not endanger future "bike"/race access.  So he'll tackle the GC starting tomorrow.

[riverfever]

That sucks. Hopefully he can get one tomorrow. Hat's off to him though for doing the right thing.

[Chad B]

This call-in system is pretty easy...we should do this for other races, like the CTR and Coconino. That said, the "waiting" that Max is doing just shows how swell of a guy he is. Great job Max!

[AZTtripper]

Talked with Max last night he's got the permit for today to stay at Cottonwood camp tonight. Then he'll hike out the next day and be on his way. He was bummed about the delay but better to do things legit then cause a hassle for future racers and riders. Getting to carry the canyon is a big bonus for the course weather racing or just touring and it's good to play it cool in regards to dealing with the bureaucracy up there.

3 of us from Tucson had been planning to head north for some bikepacking somewhere so the plan is that we will drive to the state line Friday night. Then on Saturday we will ride up to the Jacob Lake area and then back down Sunday morning. At this point it looks like Max will just chill at Jacob Lake until then.

[Marshal]

Looks like Max is about 3-4 miles away from his camp site--should make for a nice day--hard hike but not to hard with a nice camp and the big climb out 1st thing tomorrow with rested legs

almost done now--enjoy it Max!!

I think maybe Scott should put a * by Max's time--ie 1 day lost for permit wait (I had worried about this happening to me)

imo, biased of course, this would send the correct msg to future 750 racers (like me) who might not want (be able) to attempt the hike in one continuous thru hike

[krefs]

I think maybe Scott should put a * by Max's time--ie 1 day lost for permit wait (I had worried about this happening to me)

I agree here, Marshal. That would help send a message emphasizing responsibility in the face of this awkward situation.

[rhino]

someone school me here.  So Max was waiting on a backcountry permit for the GC, so he could camp in Wilderness?  Am I understanding this correctly? I don't have access to the 750 route at work, curious, what is the route through the canyon.  Phantom Ranch? thx.

[krefs]

Camping is only allowed in official campsites in the Grand Canyon along the Kaibab and Bright Angel trails and at Phantom Ranch, and a permit is required for any of these campsites. So that means racers can either wait for the Backcountry Office to open to get a permit, gamble and buy one in advance, or knock out the full portage in one painful swoop.

[AZTtripper]

Rhino the Canyon is not a Wilderness but as Kurt said the park restricts camping to designated sites. Max made the call to camp one night in the canyon so as to give his knees a break during the hike. He was able to get the permit during that first visit to the BCO but the date of the permit was not until the next day.

As for the * that's cool I think Max is good with what ever time he ends up with, even more then the 300 this ones about finishing. And it's good that he did things the legit way not risking future access. It would really suck to loose the Canyon crossing having to ride roads around the Canyon just wouldn't be the same.

[OurManInTheNorth]

Looks like Max is asleep at Cottonwood Camp right now, with a time from the Rim to there of about 12 hours, arriving around 7.30pm (starting to get dark?) last night. Good luck for the final push up and then the ride down to the border!

The issue with permits is that the AZT700 route takes you only through 'corridor' type zones of the canyon on the South and North Kaibab trails, where camping is only permitted at certain campgrounds (Bright Angel near the river at the bottom, Cottonwood halfway up the North Rim). Alternatives would be to get a place at Phantom Lodge with a bed, or a permit to camp 'at large' outside the corridor zone and go off and back on route again, but I think there are even less of those permits/places at Phantom Lodge than for the 'corridor zone' campsites. I'm not sure you could be told off for having a quick rest sat at the side of the trail, maybe with your eyes closed, while trying an 'all in one' effort, but as soon as you start to take out camping kit without a permit you're open to being ticked off...

[AZTtripper]

For the ultimate easy trip you get the bed at Phantom Range, and spend the second night at Cottonwood. It's actually not that bad if you break it up into 3, 7 mile days. That's how I did it in 06. I know last year a guy doing a tour got bitched at by a ranger at the north rim. He had hiked through overnight and they thought he had camped along the way without a permit. I am not sure what he said at the BCO to get them to call the north rim guys to say he was coming. But it does seem like he must have caused a scene or they never would have bothered calling the other side. I told Max it was good that he played it cool and just took what they gave him. The guy who got bitched at was not a racer and he got to the south rim after May 15 when the north side was open. There's just no hope of getting a campsite once the north rim is open.

[rhino]

I brought the question up because when I backpacked down to Phantom Ranch several years ago I saw several campsites off the trails while exploring side trails and canyons. I naively thought backcountry camping was legal because of this. Thanks for the lessons learned.

[AZTtripper]

Not sure exactly how it works but I am pretty sure you can get a permit for those sites. But with the volume of traffic in the canyon everything is regulated. Even if no one was in them when you saw them maybe they were reserved for that night, or maybe they only let them get used sparingly. Imagine what a zoo it would be if anybody could show up and walk down and camp anytime they wanted to. It's quiet possible that if a side canyon has 5 sites they still only allow 1 to be used at a time. This would give people a better experience and limits the impact on each site. It's great that Scott was able to get permission for carrying through. Hopefully future bikepackers will do like Max did and play it cool and legit.

[OurManInTheNorth]

As far as I know they allow a certain number of camp permits for the Corridor campsites per night, and a smaller number of 'backcountry' permits per night. The former you have to camp at the site you ask for. The latter let you camp according to the regulations of zones - zones closer to the corridor have specific campsites, but you can camp at any of them, zones further you can pitch anywhere including specific sites. Hence if you got one of the latter while on the AZT750 you could leave the route, camp in one of the other zones, and return to the route at the same point, but I think they are even harder to get than the corridor campsites so you'd be lucky to get one...

[ScottM]

As of an hour ago, Max is out of the canyon and now riding the pavement towards the exit of the park.  Awesome!

I told him that it may be worth checking the AZT for rideability once it exits the park and is a bit lower and also actually singletrack.  We'll see if it looks good to him or not.

[krefs]

If much of the singletrack is too snowy to ride, he could well finish tonight!! Go Max go!

[AZTtripper]

If much of the singletrack is too snowy to ride, he could well finish tonight!! Go Max go!

It's the old when does my ride get there motivation or in this case lack there of. While Kurt had the must finish by a certain date carrot dangling pulling him in to the finish early. Max has the my ride won't get there until tomorrow and doesn't leave until Sunday, drag me down might as well look for some single track deal. Though it's all about the food at this point as well if he's out of food he'll have to get to Jacob Lake. Max knows that 3 of us from Tucson are leaving tomorrow and plan to ride Saturday up to Jacob Lake and then we'll ride the AZT back down to the State Line on Sunday. I told Max we could leave him some water but he would likely have to carry enough food to hold out until we get down on Sunday. His reply was I think I just wait and ride out with you guys.

At this point he's not missing much in the way of single track most of the trail on the north rim inside the park is all old utility road. Once he's out of the park he has the option of looking for some sweet single track.

At this point he's not in the running for any kind of time record so he might as well go for the most single track possible ride. As has been pointed out before every year will be different in terms of snow detours it would be cool if Max can ride some more trail this year.

[Chad B]

I don't think Max has ever ridden on the Kaibab, some sweet singletrack up there and worth the detour and slower pace.