2012 AZT 300/750

[AZTtripper]

Pretty sure they turn the spigot at Palisades AKA Bigelow TH on or about April 15, so it depends on how fast you get there. As warm and dry as it's been they may turn it on early this year. But there is always Summerhaven just off course.

Latest word is that Oracle State Park is only open on Saturdays. So there may or may not be a water buffalo tank there. Either way it's not that much farther to Oracle.

As for distance from the start for the water table. Well I can't make it too easy on you guys or Scott will have me banned from the site.

I would suggest studying the maps figuring out where the water spots are and then cutting up the track to write up a water plan that works for you.

For my last 300 back in 010 I had my own little cue sheet with water stops laid out so that I knew how much I would need to get to the next one.

I do enjoy helping out it's great to see more people getting on the AZT. Having access to this site is almost like cheating tho compared to the trial and error method of the past.

Looking forward to this years blue dot watching on the AZT looks like its shaping up to be an interesting year. 

[Marshal]

I know it’s a bit early what with typical March weather and all—but how is the snow pack looking this yr for the 750 route?? 

& should we plan on using same “but only as needed” snow detours –same as prior yrs?

[goldscott]

Hi. I'm Scott. I'm new here and I'd like to toss my hat into the ring for the AZTR/750.

[AZTtripper]

Welcome Scott, the field for the 750 is looking good this year.

Marshall, we were looking at snowtel near Flag last month and there wasn't a whole lot but I think they got a little more. Maybe just the north rim detour this year, I have heard that things can melt out really fast up there so you never know.

[AZTtripper]

Just posted this up in the main bikepacking forum

http://www.bikepacking.net/forum/index.php/topic,2989.new.html#new

Not sure if this would ever be part of the race course or not. But it would be part of the official bike route if we can get it open.

[ScottM]

My hope / guess is that only the north rim detour will need to be used. 

Thanks for the Hope Camp post, Tim.  Seems like it might find its way into the race route, but it will add some miles.

Thanks for the water source info, too.  Great resource, and you are right to be careful not to make it too easy for people -- or risk being banned by the dictatorship.

We can add one more water source, off route, but just before the Gila Canyons segment turns away from the river.  It was flowing this weekend, which to me suggests it is a fairly reliable source.  More details, and general AZT / Gila stoke available here:

http://www.topofusion.com/diary/2012/03/07/diversity-of-the-ramble/

Trail conditions, overall, have improved, and they are getting closer on the road -> singletrack conversion near Kelvin.  I fear that they may not finish by April, however, and we may be forced to take the highway -> Battle Axe route instead.       It'll be the only thing we can do if it isn't officially open to the public by start date.

[AZTtripper]

Ok so here's the whole water table start to finish along with Scott's new source out along the Gila #27a.


# 1.    Bear Creek (spring fed) crosses under road.         6.5 miles N of the Border
# 2.   Parker Creek (dam fed)               2.5 miles N of Parker TH Starting line
# 3.   Cott Tank (solar pwd) spigot (no bikes inside fence)   4.5 miles N of Canelo Pass 19.5 miles from the start
# 4.   Patagonia (store, resterants, hotel, PO)                  31 miles from the start
# 5.   Sonoita (store, resterants, hotel)                             
# 6.   Gardner Creek (rain/snow fed)            10.7 miles N of Sonita
# 7.   Kentucky Camp (spigot)               6 miles N of Garner Creek 16. 5 from Sonoita
# 8.   Oak Tree Canyon stock tank (well fed)         8 miles N of K Camp
# 9.   The Lake (rain fed)               12.6 miles N of Oak Tree off course north on 2 track after forest gate.   
#10.   Cienga Creek under Three Bridges (all year)         2 miles north of I-10
#11.   La Posta Quemada Ranch (sink off course)         2.6 miles from 3 Bridges .7 off
#12.   La Sevilla Campground (spigot on rock)         2.3 miles from LPQ Jct. 41.6 from K Camp
#13.   Tucson (store, resterants, hotel, PO)
#14.   Chiva Tank (rain)                  2.4 miles below Redington road
#14.2 Tanke Verde Creek and water tanks jump fence            6.2 miles off Redington road
#15.   The Lake (rain usually has water)            4 miles after crossing Redington road
#16.   West Spring (spring fed) not great            3.5 miles past The Lake
#17.   Molino water hole (rain snow melt)              up steam from trail crossing east of Highway
#18.   Palisades TH (spigot mid April to mid Nov.)         12 miles up the Highway 42 miles from Broadway in Tucson
#19.   Summerhaven (visitor’s center, store, restaurant, rooms)   off course
#20.   Water Buffalo Oracle State Park            when the park reopens
#21.    Oracle (stores, resterants, motel)            off course
#22   Beehive Well (big metal tank not good)         19.5 miles north of Tiger mine rd.
#23.   Freeman Road (water cache)               just north of Freeman Road
#24.   Ripsey Wash spring (.2 miles south of trail stay on road)   18.7 miles north of Freeman Road
#25.   Pinal Co Maintenance Yard; 0.1 m north of Kelvin bdg.      outside facet available M-Th, 6:30am-3:30pm
#26.   Wilson Trailer Court; 0.5m N Kelvin bdg.            outside facet phone also available if needed
#27.   They are now saying you can filter the Gila River    57.5 miles from Oracle   
#27a. There is a little creek 15.7 miles from the Kelvin Bridge turn onto jeep road and go north east for .4 drop into creek isn’t easy.
#28.   Trough Spring         .25 miles off course go north on Telegraph canyon road 135 feet turn left on 2 track 7.5 miles from the finish line of the 300.
#29.   From Picket Post to Hewett Station is 1.7 from here east its 1 mile to Boyce Thompson Arboretum or 4.5 to Superior or 22 miles to Stores at Apache Jct.
#30.  Spigot at Lost Dutchman State Park 7.8 from Apache Jct.
#31.  Tortilla Flat spigot at Campgound on left store on right 11 miles from LDSP.
#32.  Burn Corral Camp Ground spigot 19.5 from TF.
#33.  Cholla Bay Camp Ground spigot showers 10 miles from BCCG.
#34.  Pumpkin Center stores restaurant 13 miles from Cholla Bay.
#35.  Jakes Corner store bar and grill 10,5 from PC.
#36.  Rye restaurant 8.5 from JC.
#37.  Payson 11.8 from Rye.
#39.  Pine is 22 miles from Payson look for 2 track west of highway leads to town saves riding on highway.
#40.  Red Rock spring 3.4 miles from Pine TH was dry at one point water reported 3/27/11
#41,  Pine spring 4.6 from TH water reported 3/27/11
#42.  Weber Creek 7.8 miles from TH has always had water in the past.
#43.  Bray Creek 11 miles from TH.
#44.  North Sycamore Creek 12.2 from TH
#45.  Chase Creek 13.8 from TH
#46.  East Verde River 17.5 from TH
#47.  General Springs Canyon starting at 1.5 from FS 300 several creek crossing always water
#48.  East Clear Creek at 9.2 from FS 300 often a deep creek crossing has been dry in the past.
#49.  Rock Crossing and Blue Ridge Camp Grounds only open mid May thru Oct.
#50.  Blue Ridge Ranger Station spigot .8 east on highway 87
#51.  Pine Spring 21 miles north of highway 87 .4 mile off course east of dirt road in field
#52.  35.5 miles from 87 the AZT crosses FS 219 this is the first easy access to and from Mormon Lake 2 miles all rideable off course.
#53  Apache Spring Trail to Mormon Lake is .7 miles from FS 219 steep rocky trail is the shortest route less then one mile to Mormon Lake HAB back up.
#54  Double Springs Camp Ground 4.5 miles from Apache Spring trail. Creek and spigot when Camp Ground open mid May to Oct. 3 miles all paved back to Mormon Lake.
#55.  Pine Grove Camp Ground when open (mid May) has water and showers 9 miles from Double springs .5 off course
#56.  Horse Lake typically has water 4 miles from Pine Grove.
#57.  Flagstaff has everything 16 miles from Horse Lake.
#58.  Buffalo Park on the north side of Flag has spigot (not sure when this gets turned on).
#59.  Russell Tank is the most likely spot between Flag and Tusayan 70 miles from Buffalo Park.
#60.  Tusayan 25 miles from Russell Tank.
#61.  South Rim there is a spigot near corrals at Yaki Point.
#62. There is a spigot after foot bridge 7 miles below Yaki Point and at Phantom ranch .5 farther.
#63.  Cottonwood Camp 7 miles past Phantom spigot.
#64.  Water fountain at North Kaibab TH not likely to be on. Water can be found at employee housing find ranger.
#65.  Crystal Spring 16 miles from North Kaibab TH

#66.  Dog Lake and Wildlife Drinker 2.7 miles from Crystal Spring. The Wildlife drinker is just past Dog Lake on west edge of meadow.
#67.  Jacob Lake Lodge is 2 miles west of highway crossing 28 miles north of Dog Lake.

Note this is all based on my own past knowledge as well as the ATA water table. Mileages are cut from GPS track yours may very. Your water is your responsibility.

My system of cutting the track at what I consider main junctions is just a way to help people work out their own water table. Not to just hand out the info.

Best of luck to all. Have fun out there be safe and courteous to your fellow AZT travelers.

Tim 

[windowace]

Greetings all,

Another Scott here.  I am planning to ride the 300 in two weeks and have some family members that would like to support (mentally), in thier view, my insanity.  It seems to me the best places for them to see me would be, Start, Patagonia, Sonoita, possibly underpass of I-10, East Tuscon, along the road to Summerhaven and Summerhaven, Oracle, and Finish.  Does that sound about right?  Do any of you previous racers/riders have suggestions or easy landmarks we could use as meeting points?  In the same vein, are these also the same places I will be able to refuel (food), or am I missing some locations.  Thanks to any and all. 

Cheers!

[AZTtripper]

The under pass at I 10 is hard for me to find and your way below the road at that point anyway.

I would say stick with the places where you can get a resupply and remember not to take anything from them so as not to taint your self support achievement.

Considering that pretty much everyone carries a cell phone now and that they give them the option of garnering physiological support at most any time during the course. I can't see any issue with having people meet you just at resupply points. That is as long as you still get all of your stuff from public sources.

Of course the dictator, I mean race director, might have something else to say on this matter. As it stands each race dictator has a slightly different interpretation of the "Rules of Self Support". One says no preplanned partnerships, another only allows cell phones to be used in towns. There's a whole 15 plus page thread on the subject down forum somewhere.

In 07 when Zach and I won the AZT 300 by default, everyone else (Chad Brown) dropped, we rode together most of the time. One could say that we had each other for support thus negating our achievement, one could also say that since we didn't split up along the way we achieved something different. At La Sevilla CG we were offered food by Scouts camping there, we turned them down on account of our interpretation of the rules. It was during the CTR that the concept of "Trail Angels" was conceived, that is to say excepting food from strangers who offer. Just don't beg for food.  

Seems anytime I tell people about the rules of these races I get a similar response "that's the silliest shit ever". But tho silly the rules are there for a reason. Mostly in my opinion they are there to level the playing field between locals and non locals.

So Scott it's up to you in the end. If allowing your family to see you along the way forces the dictatorship to negate your ride will you care? If not ride for yourself, that's what it's all about really, and let the chips fall where they may. If on the other hand you think your going to set a record breaking time it might be best to ask the family to give you some space.

Best of luck
Tim
2 time AZT thru rider
2 time finisher of the AZT 300
just a worn out old adventure junkie

[windowace]

Tim,
Thanks for the info.  I don't have intentions of accepting anything from them other than their encouragement.  I don't anticipate seeing them at more than one or two places (photo ops for my back in the day ramblings when I am old and decrepit), dropoff and pickup. 

When it comes to rules, sometimes silly just makes it different and challenging. I can deal.  I care only because it helps define the challenge, but I am really out there to ride(ok, suffer), see and experience places in a way the very few and fortuante do.

BTW the only records i'll be breaking are my own. Be well.

Scott

[krefs]

Ah, rules. The ultra debate that never ends. Friends/family coming out and saying hello/cheering really doesn't do much more than slow someone down as they stop to chat, tell stories, etc. There is that unquantifiable "mental boost" variable, though, which for some people, can make a huge difference. In my opinion, if someone you know wants to come out and see what the heck you're doing and cheer, by all means, let them do so as long as they do nothing more than that. I wish that the TD rules allowed that, but there's a reasonable rationale for both sides of the argument.

Spot stalkers are a whole other debate...

[Chad B]

In 07 when Zach and I won the AZT 300 by default, everyone else (Chad Brown)

Glad I got the "everyone else" label. That was an interesting attempt.

[tanman1337]

One quick question for everyone... How much food do you all normally start the race with including snacks?

[AZTtripper]

Glad I got the "everyone else" label. That was an interesting attempt.

No doubt you would have beaten Zach and I by a fair margin if you would have had a little more experience and a better kit. Not being GPS savvy and having to wait for us in the Canelo's then riding the extra miles into Green Valley for batts but you were going up Lemmon when Zach and I were just getting into Tucson. If you would have had a better bivvy kit or just more warm clothing. Of course even if you would have found someone with a fire we might have had to give you shit for not being self sufficient. If these modern bikepackers only knew how hard it was to figure shit out back in the day before http://www.bikepacking.net/

[AZTtripper]

One quick question for everyone... How much food do you all normally start the race with including snacks?

How many calories does it take to ride 30 miles of the hardest trail imaginable? The world may never know.

  Of course everyone is different. Some stuff I carry at the start because the C stores in P town and Sonoita aren't that great. But I can't eat some stuff do to allergies. I recall some one, Stephan G ?, started with a pound or some such amount of Perpetuem  but didn't get into it until north of Oracle, that allowed him to skip Oracle and make up time. Pretty sure MadMax carried a freeze dried meal from the start but planned on saving it until after Oracle. There really are a lot of food options in the first 200 miles it's that last 100 where things get sparse.

[AZTtripper]

Ah, rules. The ultra debate that never ends.

Spot stalkers are a whole other debate...

Kurt thanks for weighing in no doubt your opinion carries a fair bit of weight with the dictatorship.

[tanman1337]

Awesome, thanks Tim! Basically, I should plan for north of Oracle and obviously snacks at the in between spots. But as far as full meals, I will hugely rely on the big old burritos from the gas stations....lol

[Marshal]

One quick question for everyone... How much food do you all normally start the race with including snacks?

ahh--30 racers would mean 30 different food strategies—

I don’t know if this is what you are looking for---but

2 examples of my personal thinking with regards to food for 2 particular sections of the AZT route-

Day 1
First two C-stores on route are not open 24 hrs/day, but I should reach C-Store #1 in time to re-supply w/enough food to reach Tucson.  
Contingency thinking a)—But a possible mishap on the trail leading to a possible late arrival – so--I might want to start with enough food to get to the 1st store in Tucson (which is located here-- 32° 7.672' N 110° 43.303' W and is not open 24 hrs) Contingency thinking b)—Then again I will most likely not carry much food at the start-- and if I were to have trouble on day 1 and arrive late at a closed C-Store #1 --I could have just enough food to tide me over night 1—and hit the 2nd C-Store on morning of day 2 (2nd store is located on down the trail, w/some easy pavement for tired legs and a relatively easy night ride) —at my slow pace this is probably the best contingency for me but would be sort of silly for a mid-to front pack racer.

Oracle area:
(next possible food is Thompson Arboretum, snack only, limited hrs)
Major re-supply stop for me regardless when I might arrive--I see there is a 24hr C-store (per internet search) in Oracle-so theoretically I could arrive late at night or early morning, re-supply and not lose much time

Basically I pre-identify all possible re-supply points for food and water, for the entire route, and then think up set(s) of contingency plans for various arrival times.  The contingencies are endless as you simply can never know exactly what is going to happen in real time.  

Once I am out on the route, into my routine, and am actually standing in a particular re-supply point-- I pretty much “know” how much/what food I need to buy and/or water to carry to fit the current “on the ground” circumstances--all without a lot of thinking.  At this point my brain is always sort of fried and I really like to know ahead of time what to buy/re-supply without a lot of wasted time looking at all the yummy choices on all the shelves.

Lets end this with two simple food re-supply truisms:
1.   Go safe means always carry extra food—just in case
2.   Go light means-- as long as you have water-- you can always suffer through a mis-calculation till you reach the next food re-supply

[tanman1337]

Thanks that really helps! I think I'm going to create some waypoints along the trail in my gps of all the locations for food that might prove beneficial.

[AZTtripper]

Awesome, thanks Tim! Basically, I should plan for north of Oracle and obviously snacks at the in between spots. But as far as full meals, I will hugely rely on the big old burritos from the gas stations....lol

For some insight into the first 30 miles http://forums.mtbr.com/arizona/hell-time-772515.html