2014 CTR Discussion

[THE LONG RANGER]

Which leads me to another possibility.... flat pedals and a trail running shoe? I have not tried it yet, but I'm going to thoroughly test it out as soon as I can.

Def. those who love it. I passed a racer going NB last year who had full hiking boots on and loving life. Good looking beard, too!

I think one of the things that will feel weird is that your foot will be higher that usual on the pedal, since the trailrunners are gonna have a high sole (most likely) than your clipless shows, which put your foot just a few mm above the pedal itself.

Time for some experimenting!

[Yogi the Barry]

Re: Pedals/Shoes
Biking and HAB sum up to some level of stress. Make either one easier, by moving your foot forward on the pedal, better conditioned HAB muscles/tendons/ligaments, and perhaps you stay under the threshold of having Achilles/calf/foot issues.
Another pedal/shoe option: Toe clips and straps just loose enough to locate the foot on the pedal. Yes, it's old school. But it works great - no cleats/bolts to loosen/lose or jam with mud, just about any shoe can be used, foot is held in the proper position over the pedal. Only problem is that it's not as cool as plats and you have to be thick-skinned to deal with the snide comments and interrogations. This is what I use - 260g Performance Forte 'comp' pedals [only $30 and I trim away quite a bit of the non-clip side of the cage], nylon toe clips [yes, mounted with 1/4" thick, homemade polypropylene spacers, to relieve my calf muscles] and urethane toe straps.
Bike Shoes? Shimano MT33 and two other lighter pairs of PI shoes, one being the lace-up X-Alps model. IMHO, lace shoes better cope with foot swelling than ratchet/Velcro closures.
Trail running shoes? Unless the shoe has a really stiff board last [not slip lasted] or you put in rigid insoles, I think you will have issues with the arches of your feet, due to biking... Unless your feet are well conditioned to biking in flexible soled trail running shoes.
I'll come back and add a photo later...

...
Thanks Yogi and LR for the foot and cleat placement suggestions.... I had not considered that as a solution, but I've never had this problem from simply riding... pretty sure it was the crushing HAB on day 1 that got me.

Which leads me to another possibility.... flat pedals and a trail running shoe? ...snip...

[sherpaxc]

Re: Pedals/Shoes
Unless the shoe has a really stiff board last [not slip lasted] or you put in rigid insoles, I think you will have issues with the arches of your feet, due to biking... Unless your feet are well conditioned to biking in flexible soled trail running shoes.
I'll come back and add a photo later...

That's not really how it works with flats.  Since you are riding flat pedals your foot placement is slightly past the center of the axle.  Your whole foot is being used instead of just the ball of the foot.  You actually typically get MUCH less foot fatigue wearing flats.  I'm not a flat pedal zealot by any means.  I typically ride clipped in 100% of the time on fun singletrack, but on bikepacking trips with prodigous hike a biking a flat pedal and shoe combo is pretty nice.  I found that it took a couple weeks to get used too (practicing before hand), but it quickly became second nature.  The key to happyness is a good pedal and shoe combination.  The pedal needs to have sealed bearings, pins that screw through from the opposite side (hiding the head of the screw), and a platform that fits well to the foot.  I can personally highly recommend the Spank Spike pedals, though there are many others out there that would work. 

As to the shoes.  Be careful with trail runners.  Many times they have the plastic arches in the middle, or just too much of an arch.  They also tend to be too stiff for pedaling.  You lose they "pedal feel". 

Anyway, I really enjoy the 5.10 Freeriders.  They are a little stiff at first, but once broken in a fantastic shoe.  After doing a 5.5 hour ride last night on my flats fully loaded I've committed to doing the CT with them.  YMMV.

[Yogi the Barry]

Re: Plats
Couple other thoughts on plats, from a sitting on the couch perspective, not first hand experience:
1-You still have to place the foot on the pedal, right? Lacking a cleat/cage to locate the foot, it's all about the rider placing the foot on the pedal and not the cleat/cage self-locating the foot on the pedal. Lots of foot placements required for 12+ hour long days. From observing the people I ride with using plats, most seem to place the foot further forward than they would with cleats/caged pedals. From a traditional cycling bio-mechanical standpoint, it seems too far forward. Yes, placing the foot more forward on the pedal lessens the load on the calves. Probably easy to put the foot so far forward that the calf muscle isn't used at all. It's nice to get some useful energy out of the calves. I also see some ugly duck/pigeon foot placements too, which can go up into the knees and cause problems.
2-Just curious how the flat soled shoes hike in wet/muddy conditions?
One thing for sure, CTR type rides are a different breed, compared to any other type of cycling. There's so much HAB that it's probably more about optimizing the shoe and conditioning the body for the HAB than dialing-in the shoe/pedals for the actual pedal turning.
If the shoe fits, wear it? You betcha. YMMV? You betcha.
-Barry

That's not really how it works with flats [lack of a stiff midsole causing foot issues].  Since you are riding flat pedals your foot placement is slightly past the center of the axle.  Your whole foot is being used instead of just the ball of the foot.  You actually typically get MUCH less foot fatigue wearing flats. ...YMMV.

[sherpaxc]

Obviously if it gets wet/slick out and it's just flat dirt, it isn't the best traction wise but there are some many roots/rocks that it is honestly a non issue with the 5.10's. 

Regarding foot placement.  It's also a non issue.  I think Yogi if you gave it a chance you would probably realize it's a bit of an over analyzation. 

Funny how any thread that mentions flats turns in to a clipless v flats debate.  Like I said before, I pretty much always ride clipless.  I feel like I get more power on the steep technical climbs and more secure.  BUT!  When there is a lot of hiking involved I turn to the flats. 

What I haven't mentioned is that I also have a bad case of Morton's Neuroma in my foot and need a shoe with a wide toe box, hence my need for comfy shoes on multi days.

[Yogi the Barry]

Some might argue that just about all topics in these threads are over analyzed. But it's usually refreshing to see all the different perspectives and opinions out there.
I actually put a triangle spin on the topic and made it a clipless v flats v TOE CLIP debate and I'm guilty of beating the dead horse to a pulp.

...snippage...you would probably realize it's a bit of an over analyzation.  
Funny how any thread that mentions flats turns in to a clipless v flats debate ...snippage...

[dream4est]

I just used 5.10 freerider elements on Black Ops Nylon pedals in AZT750, best shoe to flat grippy and power I have experienced yet in the flatty world. In 20 years. Never will use a trail runner again. Pedals were old too on their 3rd race. No filing of pins stock.

[Done]

I typically ride clipped in 100% of the time on fun singletrack, but on bikepacking trips with prodigous hike a biking a flat pedal and shoe combo is pretty nice.  I found that it took a couple weeks to get used too (practicing before hand), but it quickly became second nature.

I sometimes think that this would the ideal approach. I ride clipless, but clearly see the advantages of flats on something like the CTR. Alas, I've been too nervous to change. I should probably just suck it up and do it...

[sherpaxc]

I sometimes think that this would the ideal approach. I ride clipless, but clearly see the advantages of flats on something like the CTR. Alas, I've been too nervous to change. I should probably just suck it up and do it...

Believe me Toby, I too was too nervous, proud, vain, blah blah blah.  I mean, everything I've ever known was about being clipped in.  I don't remember who I first saw riding with flats.  I think it was either Jefe or maybe Jason(?), the dude from Salida that rides the MClung (I remember the bike!).  Anyway, something just clicked and I realized that it has to be worth a shot.  I read up on HOW to pedal correctly, foot placement, and all the other things I spend to much time looking at on the internet.  Then I just realized I needed to do it.  Kind of like bikepacking. 

I'm not saying it is a whole new world.  But man, when it is time to walk my feet are sure thankful for my shoe choice. 

Now I'm going for a ride...clipped in.  

Anyway, I feel your pain when it comes to hesitating. 

[sherpaxc]

I just used 5.10 freerider elements on Black Ops Nylon pedals in AZT750, best shoe to flat grippy and power I have experienced yet in the flatty world. In 20 years. Never will use a trail runner again. Pedals were old too on their 3rd race. No filing of pins stock.

Did the element version make your feet hot?  I worry about that.

[Shirey]

BTW... if you are interested in the snow situation @ 11,000' pretty close to Georgia Pass.... (sorry so big)

We have gotten 35" with persistently cold temps in the last 7 days.

Supposedly two warmer and dry days coming Sunday/Monday, and then more on the way....  

[dream4est]

Did the element version make your feet hot?  I worry about that.

No not really. Maybe once when I went out of saddle like super hard for hours one night.
And they failed in the grand canyon and got soft but hey thats a crapshoot at best.
For 550 mile CTR I think they are perfect.


Edit- I do believe that the 5.10 impact low may be better at hot feet issues but overall the extra weight and bulky feel of the impacts is a negative aspect that has to be considered.

[joeydurango]

Sheesh.  No winter all winter (down here, anyway), and then all of a sudden it's refusing to actually become spring.

[joeydurango]

I bet mostly dry.  Don't ride much road, but the mountains (other than recent, soon to melt snowfall) aren't super-full.  I'd guess the upper reaches of the passes may be a little wet on shoulders, but unless we get more weather it should be beautiful!

[drchristiansen]

I ran the X-Alp Pros in 2011.  Pretty good.  I then ran Shimano's M162 in 2013, and they were far superior.  I've found a new favorite shoe...

Well, can't say it doesn't freak me out a bit, but better to know now and prepare.  Like Sherpaxc, I'm coming from Flatlandia, so I will have little time to practice and will probably have to HAB even more.  I'm familiar with the terrain, but only from a BP perspective, not a mt biking one.  Need to adjust my thinking, and my training, for the summer.

Thanks, everyone, for their comments and advice, it all helps.

[mtbcast]

Looking forward to being at the start! I've got the giveaways coming together. Each racer's call give them a chance at one of three packages. Nothing too fancy but some stuff you can use from Wolf Tooth, ProGold, Relevant Designs and others coming on board! This will be for all races this year going through until the AML but the more calls you place the better.

[mountainjah]

Looking forward to being at the start! I've got the giveaways coming together.

Right on Joe!

[wbcmaelstrom]

I've been riding with Specialized Rimes for over a year and love them. They are not terribly uncomfortable walking/hiking, but I don't think I'd enjoy them for hundred miles of hike a bike.

I've worn clippies mountain biking for years, as up until last year I lived in Texas where we can ride with 'summer shoes' year round. Over the winter, I ran my Pugsley on platforms with big snow boots and my Fargo on flats with Five Ten Impact Highs. The Five Tens are incredibly grippy, and love them much more for descending as I just 'feel' more of the pedal with my whole foot instead of just the ball of my feet clipped in. That, and seeing how much HAB was on CT, I thought I might keep the platforms on through the season. Just with different shoes.

I kept platforms on the Pugsley through the spring and even put platforms on my FS Turner. However, the Impact Highs are just terribly hot now that it's getting warmer out. I also have a pair of Salmon Trail Running shoes and they just don't feel near as good on the pedals and have thin flexy insoles. Casual ride around town... fine, but I wouldn't even want to wear my Trail Runnders at Buff Creek for a day. I looked at Five Ten Freeriders and they were pretty solid, but heard about them taking forever to dry out. I don't like wet feet. There's also two versions of the Freeriders, one has slick soles around the pedal contact the other does not. Reviews said that the smooth sole ones don't give hardly any traction hiking.

I then found out about the Five Ten Aescents. They are more for hiking/casual. They have the same grippy sole as the other Five Tens but have more ventilation. Some kayaking guys also wrote that they wear them without socks and they are comfortable and dry fast. I ordered them last night and will be using them in Moab this weekend. Will chime back with a review.

[wbcmaelstrom]

Wow, so is the needle, thread and glue for sewing a ripped tubeless tire, or for fixing thread bare carpet you might encounter?

This has been holding for a few hundred miles now. If 45NRTH tires weren't so expensive, I'd buy a new one.

There's a Park boot underneath, too.

That reminds me. I should probably try and find a new Dillinger before the production run is sold out across the country.

[DanHickstein]

I've used flat pedals and the 5.10 impact low shoes for the past 3 years on the CTR. I don't set any speed records in my bikepacking, but the flat pedal/shoe combo is very comfortable, and I don't think that clipless pedals would make me that much faster - especially on a course like the CTR that has so much hike-a-bike. The sticky rubber is very nice when you need to dab on a sketchy rock section. You can go from biking mode to rock climbing mode in about 0.1 seconds .