2015 TD with one added rule?

[bruce.b]

  I'm just putting this out there to see if anyone feels the same way. One of the aspects of TD I am not personally in love with is the sleep deprivation aspect. I've often thought that an interesting variation would be to have a mandatory 8 hour rest stop at some point every night. Each racer gets to pick when to stop, but at some point every night, or maybe just every 24 hour period, you need to not move forward on the course for 8 hours. A spot ping at the start and end of the period to verify it.

  This obviously wouldn't be a rule added to the TD Grand Depart, but just a small subset of racers that agree to race under this added rule. It would be very interesting to see how this would impact the race. How much longer it would take and if racer's average speeds are higher and with less or basically no stops during the other 16 hours of each day.

  Does this interest anyone else?

[J-wow]

No.

[Woodland]

Come on man. Pushing through the night with a cone of light illuminating the trail in front with a full moon overhead is the very image of bikepack racing.

I can't even remember the last time I got 8 hours of sleep...

[Buttermilk]

Absolute NO.
Let's not dumb down our sport to the least common denominator.
Ride your ride...don't regulate mine.

Like Woodland said...8 hours sleep...can't remember when.

[bruce.b]

slhappy, explain to me how this can IN ANY WAY possibly be construed as *regulating* your ride? Seriously, I don't get it. Are you threatened somehow by the idea of maybe a couple of people agreeing to race it this way. Why would you possibly care?

I asked if anyone was interested. Not who isn't interested.

No one would be getting 8 hours sleep this way as obviously, to me at least, you'd try to cram, as much as possible, all your housekeeping stuff, food procuring, bike maintenance, etc. into those hours.

[mbeardsl]

I think the thread title is the issue, but don't see what the problem is. 

What you're really suggesting is an alternate TDR for a small/medium group of folks, just call it something different.  Another option would be to make it a stage race with very long days.  Pick spots ~14-16 hours apart (given the amount of daylight) and everyone stops there for the night.  Start at 6am every morning.  Fastest overall time wins.  Probably get more motivation as you have a mini GD every morning (or whenever folks get up and at it).  Would take longer overall but absolutely be "softer" and perhaps attract some of the folks we hear about bending the rules.  That'd keep the TDR GD for the "purists" etc and the world is a happy place. Maybe.

Maybe not.  Too many people on the route at once, new race stepping on the toes of pioneers, and all the other issues that come up about this time every year.  Not sure how many of those are really issues and how much are speculation by armchair quarterbacks.

[Done]

If you want a race like that, then start one. Just don't call it the Tour Divide.

[bruce.b]

Yeah mbeardsel, the thread title is probably what set some people off, but it seemed the simplest way to say it at the time. I've thought about the point to point stage race idea too. Logistically that seemed harder to me. Both ways have their merits.

Toby, that is exactly the idea, to see if anyone else would want to get together and do it. I thought that was clear. As far as a name I didn't even think about that because it wouldn't be anything more than a couple of people who agree to do the TD and follow this rule. Until a couple of people say they're interested there is no reason to pursue it further.

Every year people argue about the TD rules and others always respond, "start your own race." That is what this is, just asking if there is any interest in a few people agreeing among themselves to try it this way. Nothing more. IF say, three or more people are interested then that would be the time to work out any details. Start date, SOBO or NOBO, the exact format, etc. Maybe even a name, but I wasn't thinking to formalize it like that, more just a gentleman's agreement.

It was just an idea on a long ride with my riding partner where we were talking about TD and both of us agreed that we love to do long rides but the idea of racing TD on no to limited sleep every night is probably our least favorite aspect of the race as far as racing it. We both thought it would be more fun to (for us) do it this way and make it less about sleep deprivation and perhaps more about riding faster when on the bike. In the same way that you pack your worries for a race like this perhaps we're just trying to eliminate what we consider our biggest weakness if we race it. Not sure about that, I just thought I'd find this way more fun.

If this happened my thought was to go NOBO to separate it further from TD, but to start on the same grand depart date. Maybe it would be better to start on a different date? I'd rather not spend any more time on this unless at least one or two more people show an interest.

[tanadog]

In NZ, both the brevets run here have a rule like that. The Great Southern Brevet had a 4 hour sleep zone, the Kiwi Brevet a 6 hour sleep zone. The 4 hour didn't really affect decision making, but the 6 hour did at times (especially in a short (4-7 day event). I will note, that the organisers try to make the these events more participation based, rather than race based.... In reality, I don't see that they add alot because most peoplke stop for these times anyway. They do however add to the intrigue and strategy, and to some degree the safety of the event.

[sherpaxc]

Yeah, I like that rule!  It's called TOURING. 

I'm a fan of TOURING.    It hurts way less.

[Done]

Yeah, I like that rule!  It's called TOURING. 

I'm a fan of TOURING.    It hurts way less.

[bruce.b]

OK, so that's three people in as long as we make it ten hours. I'm a little surprised you like it Toby.

[Done]

I'm a little surprised you like it Toby.

I'm all for different "grades" and styles of ultra-racing--as long as they are different events. Rather than forcing everyone to race in the same style, making different events that allow for different approaches is a great idea. It will probably reduce the kind of crap that we keep seeing in the big events these days. Want to race as hard as possible, with a strict interpretation of self-support and full-on sleep deprivation? Then the CTR is your bag. Want to race the Colorado Trail with mandatory sleep stops? Then start the Colorado Trail Stage Race. Seems likes a win-win!

[mbeardsl]

Agree with Toby.

Can never have too many styles IMO.  Me and another guy here on the forums were discussing organizing a local gravel grinder and one of the options we thought about was a PMBAR-style event.  Ultimately that'll have to be next year or the next, but it'd be a hell of a lot more fun than grinding out miles at race pace.  Makes it more strategic, more interesting, and simply more fun to the folks who enjoy that kind of thing.

[dgjessee]

To me, sleeping for however long you want/need is part of someone's personal race strategy. Who cares what the others do? If you need 8 hours to stay fresh, have fun, and race hard the other 16 hours in the day, do it! Personally I love resting long stints when I can, but I also don't like to be limited for those times when I'm fresh or weather is changing.

[Auke]

it ain't the Tour du France

[JosiahM]

I think what bruce is really suggesting isn't a separate race or subset of race rules.  It seems what he is suggesting is a pact.  A group of riders racing the tour divide join a pact to be stopped for an 8 hour period every night.
it's actually kind of a cool concept that would give the advantage to the racers who are actually stronger riders rather than the riders who have the highest tolerance to little sleep.
I don't think it would ever make it into the rules books for any of these events, but if a group of racers select to join a pact to race with this style, I would love to sit back and watch how all their strategies play out and all this.  Maybe you could even get Scott to add a category on the trackleaders page so we can sort by the people in that pact to compare these people with each other.
but I agree with everyone on here that similar rules should never be imposed on the race itself (unless we start to see people pushing themselves to a severely dangerous state of sleep deprivation and putting the name of bikepacking at risk)

[bruce.b]

As far as the touring joke, do you really think if you had several people racing the TD route as hard as they possibly can for somewhere between 15 to 16 hours per day that that would in any way feel like touring? I think it would be interesting to see how it impacts how you'd race it. Your average rolling speed would certainly be higher. Your race strategy would change too. You'd likely see more hard attacks on the climbs to get away, knowing you can recover that night. It also may attract a slightly different crowd of serious racers that might not like the sleep deprivation aspect.

I made it clear in the first post that I was only asking if this interests anyone else. The time to work out exactly how to do it would be when/if several people express interest.

While not entirely unexpected I find it odd and more than a little unfriendly that people would post on this thread to attack and belittle the idea. How about next time just not post if something doesn't interest you and you have nothing positive to say?

[bruce.b]

Thanks JosiahM. When I posted the first time my thought was that somewhere between zero and three people might express interest. At most five people. That would then be the time to work out how to do it. Something as simple as a couple of people agreeing to do it this way and maybe do a NOBO run to not step on any sensitive toes.

[Done]

Suggesting anything that doesn't fit the status quo always creates controversy. Helps to have thick skin.