2015 TD

[ABfolder]

I also fall in the "do what works for you" crowd, but I'm a proponent of carrying an 11 oz canister of pepper spray the entire length of the Divide, especially for women.

As bear biologist Smith points out in the video that Flinch linked to, everyone who enters a bear's home ground -- remember, we're uninvited guests -- should follow the maxim "do what works for you and the bears". And that means carrying bear spray and knowing how to use it. That spray also comes in handy against other four-legged beasts like cougars (or two-legged creeps if/when necessary).

[Jilleo]

You're right, but as others have pointed out, it's more important to prevent a bear charge than try to defend one, by hanging food far out of reach when camped, and making noise when rolling through the woods.

Two-legged creeps are far more prevalent and less predictable than bears or mountain lions. The fact that this issue comes up about 1% as often as bear banter only proves that most people play up their own fears, rather than review logical risk assessment. Or ... maybe this is just because there are still far less women out there doing a solo bike tour that involves long stints of riding through remote areas at night, alone, and camping at random spots in the woods. 

[megand]

Two-legged creeps are far more prevalent and less predictable than bears or mountain lions. The fact that this issue comes up about 1% as often as bear banter only proves that most people play up their own fears, rather than review logical risk assessment. Or ... maybe this is just because there are still far less women out there doing a solo bike tour that involves long stints of riding through remote areas at night, alone, and camping at random spots in the woods. 

I'd be interested in chatting about some of the more uniquely female issues of the race - because yep, I've considered I'll feel a bit weird about broadcasting where I'm sleeping alone in a tent, and being a solo female traveller is definitely sometimes uncomfortable...

[ABfolder]

You're right, but as others have pointed out, it's more important to prevent a bear charge than try to defend one, by hanging food far out of reach when camped, and making noise when rolling through the woods.  

Let me play Devil's Advocate here for a moment: Skip forward a few years and there are now 200+ riders rolling through the Canadian wilderness enroute to Roosville. One of those riders, or perhaps two or three of them riding together, are attacked and severely injured or killed by a grizzly in Banff National Park, Alberta's Kananaskis Country or the Flathead. None of them were carrying bear spray because they thought blowing on whistles was enough to protect them -- and, heck, they were "doing what works for them" (in order to reduce the weight they were hauling to an extreme minimum). Do you honestly believe that a so-called "underground race" will be allowed to continue through Canada? I think the current organizers need to look at the racer stats in the latest Cordillera and tally their local political support: 93% of the riders are non-Canadian and the 7% who are Canadian are certainly not all from Alberta and B.C. The first question everyone locally will be asking is "What are those people doing riding through our parks and wilderness areas in those kinds of numbers without any regulation including a mandatory rule for bear spray?" The Tour Divide has a long list of other rules, does it not? For the safety of both local entrants (i.e. voters) and wildlife, the races out of the Canmore Nordic Centre are now towing the line with a mandatory bear spray rule. What makes the Tour Divide -- a group of mostly non-voting "foreigners" essentially on a large joyride -- so special? The answer? Nothing. It'll make the TD look like a bunch of irresponsible wingnuts if someone gets killed or injured. Who in their right mind rides into the Flathead without bear spray -- in the dark, no less. Everyone knows the place is crawling with grizzlies and black bears. If a bear or bears get killed as a result, you'll have influential NGOs jumping all over the TD. And they have a whole lot more political pull than Crazy Larry does.

I'm not a betting man but if I was, my money is on the bears and the NGOs not the Tour Divide. I'm flogging this dead horse for a reason in hopes that someone wakes up in a hurry and takes some necessary action before it's too late.

BTW The "others" you're referring to aren't bear biologists with decades of experience. All of them, to a man/woman, recommend carrying bear spray and knowing how to use it. You can blow whistles, yell and have a completely clean camp and still end up on the wrong end of the stick. And that end of the stick had better have some bear spray on it when you need it. You don't allow 150 to 200+ people to invade (en masse!) a continental bear hotspot -- the entire northern section of the route -- in what amounts to a free-for-all and then look the other way with regards to their safety and the ultimate welfare of the local wildlife (who die after preventable accidents/deaths happen). That eventually catches up with you.

[Jilleo]

I'd be interested in chatting about some of the more uniquely female issues of the race - because yep, I've considered I'll feel a bit weird about broadcasting where I'm sleeping alone in a tent, and being a solo female traveller is definitely sometimes uncomfortable...

Definitely. I've thought about the whole SPOT stalking (as in real stalking) thing as well, and while I think chances are low, it's still worth considering turning off the SPOT 10 or so minutes before camping, and not having it on at night. The effect on data gathering would be minimal, and at least the specifics aren't being broadcast.

And definitely, if you have any more questions, send me an e-mail. It's jillhomer (at) gmail

And ABfolder — I'm actually a supporter of carrying bear spray in bear country, but I do think it's important to keep all risks in perspective. You're starting to sound like a gun advocate who thinks having a weapon somehow makes everything safe, which doesn't help anyone. People need to be aware *and* prepared. Bear biologists would advocate making noise, carrying food in a bear-proof container, *not riding at night,* AND carrying bear spray.

I've competed in several group events in grizzly bear habitat, having lived in Alaska for five years. I rode 2010 TransRockies through Fernie and Canmore, and I was one of the only riders carrying bear spray in that event, with 500+ others tearing through bear country. Believe me, you don't need to convince me. But Tour Divide riders really need to do an honest assessment of all of the risks. If you're going to be so panicked about bears, I only hope you're giving at least equal consideration to hypothermia, heat stroke, trauma as a result of a bike crash in an area where help is far away, vehicle collisions, lightning strikes, dog attacks, crime, etc. I only mention all this because your approach comes across as fear-mongering.

[ABfolder]

Jill, I fully realize what the other risks are. But the difference is this, in virtually all other scenarios the rider is the one who pays for their sins/miscalculations. When a bear attacks and injures or kills someone who is riding without spray, they end up with a bullet between their ears. I'm not fear mongering, I'm thinking of the welfare of the wildlife in the region.

In a nutshell, it's irresponsible to enter a known bear hotspot without bear spray -- not only on account of the risk to the rider, but the risk to the bears.

Lightning hits you, hypothermia or hyperthermia nails you, you fall off a bike down a cliff, you run into a vehicle because you're going too fast downhill -- that's your problem. No bear spray ... that potentially drags a bear into the mess and they die as a result.

[Marmey]

Hi all. I am gearing up for an attempt on the TD in 2015 after watching and lurking around here for 3 or 4 years now. I am just waiting for holiday confirmation before I throw my hat in the ring and punch off an L.O.I. In the mean time I am riding as much as work allows, building a new bike and generally gathering information.
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Anyway, hoping to add my name to the list soon.
Cheers
Dave

Great to see you are about to take next step Dave. Having your name on the list is an exciting thing. All the prep begins to make sense and the butterflies start. For me it was the start of the journey.

Cheers
Mark     

[mountainbaker]

Best video I've seen re how to live with bears, and it tackles some myths out there: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PExlT-5VU-Y

Great talk, and yeah, dude is hilarious!

Being a brit, I've never encountered a bear in the wild (apart from inside a car in Vermont (I think) when I was a really young). I'll be carrying spray for sure, and a whistle for use while riding. All that cougar talk has added a new element, they attack from behind eh? Gonna make me ride faster! shiiiiit.

[LiveTrout]

As for mountain lions, I know several backcountry riders who wear competitive titanium neck collars (lined w merino wool).
A cat's target is your neck...

[falkenjaeger]

Well, unfortunately I did not finish in 2013 but I made it all the way through Montana. So, I thought, this kinda qualifies me at least a little bit to add my 2 cents to the bear discussion. First, I did carry bear spray and send a picture home to my wife and kids before the GD to keep everyone in a decent mood. Second, I didn't need it. Why? IMO the strategy, also discussed earlier here, should be to avoid bear encounter. I totally agree with that. During a vacation trip to Canada a few years earlier, a park ranger had told me to look at the bear signs. I am not talking about the brown ones with white letters on it stating "Be bear aware". I am talking about bear scat on the trail. Seriously. It is an unmistakable sign that you are biking through an area with bear activity. The scat is dry (and doesn't smell) - bear has probably left the area or is still asleep - you are more or less safe. If it's "fresh and smelly" (you don't have to stick your nose deep into it to be able to smell it ) - bear is near, alive and awake, so better have your bear spray ready and be alert. Whenever the trail turned smelly I started blowing my whistle like a maniac (I really hope not all the bears are deaf by now and my strategy doesn't work anymore). This is even more important before turns and when you ride downhill at higher speed. You certainly don't want to bump into a bear. Maybe I was just lucky, but I have not even SEEN a bear on my whole trip through Canada and Montana. Don't know if this works with cougars. And, by the way, I will most likely be back in 2015 to refine my strategy

[ABfolder]

Maybe I was just lucky.

You were: http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2014/06/12/grizzly-attacks-car-jasper_n_5488751.html + http://www.thejasperlocal.com/exclusive-biker-describes-grizzly-attack.html . BTW The car driver's advice applies doubly so to cyclists: http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/edmonton/grizzly-smashes-into-side-of-car-on-jasper-highway-1.2672756 .

In early June the bears are coming off a hard winter and are in a bit of a foul mood. They're looking to feed undisturbed to put some needed weight back on. I had to laugh when I saw the park ranger's advice about scat on the trail. There are numerous bears in the same area and not all of them deposit a fresh load conveniently on a trail for our inspection. There could be a steaming fresh elk kill three feet off a bike trail that a bear will defend with its life -- especially in June -- and you wouldn't know it until you're on top of it. It would take a tank to move that bear off a fresh kill -- not a whistle. All that 120dB whistle is doing is alerting the bear to the fact that a "competitor" (for its kill) is coming. Bear spray might give you a survivable minute or three to hightail it out of that danger zone. Otherwise, you'd be added to the dinner pile.

I placed a link upthread to a map of griz distribution in British Columbia. There is a rough total of close to 500 grizzlies in the Southern Rockies and Flathead sections of B.C. that the Tour Divide runs through (again, that doesn't include the black bear population). If you didn't see one of the bruins, does that mean those 500 animals aren't around? I suggest talking to wildlife biologists when you want advice on bears -- a good many "park rangers" are kids from university working seasonal summer jobs.

The titanium neck collar for cougars is a new one for me. In the old days, they used thick leather collars.

[james-o]

"Bear spray would give you a survivable minute or three to hightail it out of that danger zone. Otherwise, you'd be added to the dinner pile."

Assuming you hadn't crashed in panic as soon as it moved, or had enough time to stop without making the situation worse, could stabilise yourself and get the spray and use it without soiling yourself and doing a load of things wrong with body language, or simply getting the spray use wrong and pssing the bear off then dropping it as it charges you. And assuming the wind wasn't in your face.. Maybe that guy in the sports store in Calgary was just winding up a green Brit.

I slept out every night, took a lot of precautions, saw some bears and felt lucky to see wildlife like that. The moose in the Flathead area were amazing animals.

[ABfolder]

I changed the wording to "might give you a survivable minute or three" before you replied James. On reflection, I thought "would" was too generous a word. Regarding wind at close range -- it's a non-issue. That stuff is coming out of the canister at 75mph so unless a typhoon is blowing in, it'll hit the target. Don't listen to sports store staff, either. They aren't wildlife biologists. The point I keep hammering home is that just because you had no problems, doesn't mean the next guy faces the same situation. Bears move, trailside kills happen, etc etc. It's a form of Russian Roulette with the odds of something happening increasing with the number of riders each year -- many of them uninformed, misinformed or unaware. Carry bear spray and know how to use it!

[james-o]

Sure. I know what you're getting at and I'm a Brit, what do I know about bears. My point wasn't that I disagree with what you're saying, just relaying the doubt that was put into my mind that made me realise that a $40 can of spray isn't a fix-all, more of a last chance sort of thing when it's already a bad situation.

The guy in the sports store I chatted to wasn't staff, he was a forest worker there buying gun stuff. I overheard him talking about some work they were doing and some wildlife he'd seen that week. I asked him about bear risk and what he'd use (aside from a rifle) and he seemed to have some experience and good advice, once the obligatory wind-ups were taken care of. Helped put it in perspective for me. What I took from it was that if good precautions and sense were used, the chance of being bear-food is minimal and comes down to really bad luck. Fair point on increasing numbers - maybe safety in numbers for some but more chance of something going wrong. Simple stats.

[robinb]

Don't listen to sports store staff, either. They aren't wildlife biologists.

Or online forums... Are you or anyone else posting here wildlife biologists?

Let's be mindful of what we are posting in this thread - as the potential audience reading through here trying to educate themselves on an upcoming divide run may get some mis-information that could put them in harms way.

Perhaps the TD organizer could get a page written by an expert(s) in bear interaction, lightning, women alone in the backcountry etc and posted up on their site, so when potential racers come here looking, they can be directed to a legitimate source?

[james-o]

Risky for any organiser to take any responsibility there though. It's just common sense to consider and research likely risks and decide how you'll manage them. There's a lot of BS online as well as good advice, you need to filter it. If you don't have that basic life skill you're in trouble in many things you do, not just on a bike ride.
Eg, people go into the mountains and die every winter. There's a wealth of good information on how to minimise the risks but ignorance or simple bad luck still claim a few. It's just a risky place to be. If you simply know that avalanches and falls etc happen you can then decide how you'll approach those risks. imo 'The TDR goes through grizzly and cougar and lightning storm country and you may end up caught out or sleeping in the middle of nowhere' is enough information to put out there, it's a simple fact and once knowing that people will fall into the 'ignorant / stupid' or 'prepared and accepting of some risk' camps. I don't think there's many, if any, in the former.

[ABfolder]

Or online forums... Are you or anyone else posting here wildlife biologists?

Quick answer: Yes, but you'd know that if you've been reading the thread in its entirety. I've been working around bears since I was a teenager and am now pushing the 60 year mark. I've been around blacks, griz and polar bears which is likely something that few if any other people on this forum can claim.

And I don't need to leave town to have wildlife encounters: http://globalnews.ca/news/1710438/moose-shot-and-killed-outside-marlborough-mall/. BTW That's today's news -- in a Canadian city of 1.2 million people. In my neighbourhood, we get pairs of coyotes roaming down the streets in search of white-tailed jackrabbits (prairie hares) in the wintertime. Now we all know that coyotes are absolutely harmless -- or so the stories go -- but several years back one of them sunk its teeth into a small kid's head in a playground two blocks from my house and tried to haul her away. Thankfully, several adults were in the vicinity and they intervened. Unique? Nope: http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgary/calgary-man-fights-off-coyote-in-living-room-with-vacuum-1.2749744 . Rare? Yes. Black bears and bobcats have also made appearances. Heck, I see deer in the inner city here on a regular basis.

Regardless of preparation, sh*t happens. Carry bear spray and hope you never have to use it.

On the subject of organizers and routes, let me point out that the TransRockies event that Jill mentioned -- now retired -- was routed around the Flathead. Since it was run out of Fernie they could have easily swung the route east on forestry roads but didn't. Take a guess as to why they did that.

At the risk of flogging a dead horse until it's completely flat, let me add another "rare" encounter that involved several airhorns but no bear spray:
http://news.nationalpost.com/2014/05/08/coworkers-desperately-tried-to-save-lorna-weafer-from-fatal-black-bear-attack-at-alberta-oilsands-site/ . What do you think would have happened had all those now-guilt-ridden bystanders been equipped with bear spray strapped to their waists or chests? Advice from distinguished (actually emeritus professor these days) bear biologist Steve Herrero: "They should always carry accessible bear spray with them." I'm not arguing that this kind of event isn't extremely rare, but from Banff to the border TD riders are rolling through some of the most densely populated bear country on the continent. Bear spray could potentially save your life or that of other riders nearby.

[THE LONG RANGER]

Regardless of preparation, sh*t happens. Carry bear spray and hope you never have to use it.

That's ABfolder's point of view in a nutshell. Moving on!

[ABfolder]

Agreed.

Another Bible Thumper with the same advice: http://www.thecragandcanyon.ca/2014/01/07/living-with-challenging-neighbours + http://www.calgaryherald.com/news/alberta/Learn+live+alongside+natural+predators+says+animal+expert/9365059/story.html .

“We can’t just treat animals as entertainment,” he said. “We go out there, we see ... a pack of wolves, or a dog startles a bear and it runs away — and that’s our story to go home with, but we’re going home having experienced that at the expense of an animal that is living on the edge.

“They are living on the edge of survival, especially in the winter. We aren’t. They are there where they have to be. We are there where we chose to be, so it really falls to us ... to figure out how to coexist with them.”

[robinb]

Quick answer: Yes, but you'd know that if you've been reading the thread in its entirety.

Sorry, I must of missed it in one of your 21 posts about... bears... just in this thread.

As Justin points out... move on...