2019 AZTR Race Discussion

[jthops]

Those asking about Kerkove. I climbed a bunch of the climb up from the Gila with him. We both ran out of water in the heat, but he was pretty worried. As I slowly moved ahead of him, he yelled out to have someone bring him water. Several hours later and still an hour from the finish, I saw the sheriff’s heli fly over. I understand that they gave him water, but he refused the ride. I assume he pushed the SOS button, but I’m not sure. I finished in bad shape, and I’m sure Jeff wasn't any better. It was definitely the wrong time of day to be exposed on that mountain. Oh, then there was the rattler...

[Jalene]

Those asking about Kerkove. I climbed a bunch of the climb up from the Gila with him. We both ran out of water in the heat, but he was pretty worried. As I slowly moved ahead of him, he yelled out to have someone bring him water. Several hours later and still an hour from the finish, I saw the sheriff’s heli fly over. I understand that they gave him water, but he refused the ride. I assume he pushed the SOS button, but I’m not sure. I finished in bad shape, and I’m sure Jeff wasn't any better. It was definitely the wrong time of day to be exposed on that mountain. Oh, then there was the rattler...

If that is the case, I don't think those circumstances warrant relegation or the need for him to voluntarily scratch. The sheriff department (or whatever agency) aided as a public service and would have responded to anyone.  I'm sure it wasn't a call taken lightly - oh, hey, I'm thirsty. I think I'll have some water brought out to me. I respect Jeff's humility in feeling the need to scratch, but I don't think he needed to. 💕

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[flyboy]

If that is the case, I don't think those circumstances warrant relegation or the need for him to voluntarily scratch. The sheriff department (or whatever agency) aided as a public service and would have responded to anyone.  I'm sure it wasn't a call taken lightly - oh, hey, I'm thirsty. I think I'll have some water brought out to me. I respect Jeff's humility in feeling the need to scratch, but I don't think he needed to. 💕

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If that story is correct then yes, he needed to scratch as that is definitely support. If it isn’t, then next time I am getting pizza and milkshakes choppered out to me at Beehive Well.....

[Jalene]

If that story is correct then yes, he needed to scratch as that is definitely support. If it isn’t, then next time I am getting pizza and milkshakes choppered out to me at Beehive Well.....

As long as the support is neutral and available to everyone, then you're good to go.

BTW, if you hang in there a few more miles you can get pizza and milkshakes delivered to you at Kelvin. 😊

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[flyboy]

As long as the support is neutral and available to everyone, then you're good to go.

BTW, if you hang in there a few more miles you can get pizza and milkshakes delivered to you at Kelvin. 😊

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Yes, I did that last year but I think you missed my point.

[flyboy]

It looks like it took JD 26.5 hours to do the Four Peaks route and Hanoch just 10.5 on the main route. HR covered 154 miles to JD’s 77 miles and is about 12 miles in front at the moment. JD has that god-awefull climb into Payson ahead of him yet.
Whew!! Them there’s some tough style miles!  

[Jalene]

Yes, I did that last year but I think you missed my point.

I don't think I missed your point.  I think the point you are trying to make is that if you receive any support at all, you should scratch or be relegated.  Or, possibly your point is that he received neutral support at a location one wouldn't normally receive support?

I'm sure it was a request for support that was not made on a whim, or even a desire, but likely a necessity to avoid dire consequences.  In my mind, not the same level as getting a pizza and milkshakes choppered into Beehive Well.

Neutral support is neutral support, whether it be food and beverage deliveries to Kelvin, wheel deliveries to trailheads, or lifesaving water deliveries trailside.

I'm not here to argue.  I simply shared my opinion (which is just that).  No matter how one slices it, it's was still an admirable and respectable finish ~ and, voluntary scratch/self relegation (which I don't think you are trying to diminish, either).  ♥

[flyboy]

I don't think I missed your point.  I think the point you are trying to make is that if you receive any support at all, you should scratch or be relegated.  Or, possibly your point is that he received neutral support at a location one wouldn't normally receive support?

I'm sure it was a request for support that was not made on a whim, or even a desire, but likely a necessity to avoid dire consequences.  In my mind, not the same level as getting a pizza and milkshakes choppered into Beehive Well.

Neutral support is neutral support, whether it be food and beverage deliveries to Kelvin, wheel deliveries to trailheads, or lifesaving water deliveries trailside.

I'm not here to argue.  I simply shared my opinion (which is just that).  No matter how one slices it, it's was still an admirable and respectable finish ~ and, voluntary scratch/self relegation (which I don't think you are trying to diminish, either).  ♥

I’m not arguing either. I think he had an outstanding ride and (if reports are correct) it is a shame to get so close, only to need help. He knows it and did the honorable thing (again, if reports are correct).
 I’m not from the US but my understanding is you push the HELP button on your Spot because you need help. Outside help is not permitted, only commercially available to anyone at any time support is allowed.
This hair splitting comes up every year here, on the TDR and CTR forums. The underlying inference in the rules is to do it yourself, with no help, even if it doesn’t specifically exclude the Sheriiff’s dept flying in, over all the other racers, to give water to one competitor.  http://topofusion.com/azt/race-rules.php

[phatmike]

On one hand, I don't want to say anything because I don't know all the facts. On the other hand, I think for all of us who love this event and others like it (which I would have to believe everyone reading this does), I think there needs to be a very real understanding that if hitting SOS is considered neutral support, then this event is in real danger of being shut down. I guarantee that someone somewhere will get a hair up their tail to "keep us all safe". Sad but true.

Do I think there are scenarios (God forbid) where it's needed? Yes. For me personally, if my sole issue was water you better believe I would have turned myself around and backtracked downhill to the Gila to fix the situation as soon as I realized it. If you are smart enough to get through the first 266 miles to the turn away from the Gila, you're smart enough to know how much water you really should take to get out safely. Failure to do so puts your life in jeopardy, not to mention the future of the race as we know it.

[AZTtripper]

What phatmike said, without know exactly what happened we can only speculate and there's no point in that.

However we can not take a caviler attitude about hitting the 911 button http://www.bikepacking.net/forum/bikepacking/yuppie-911/

A past incident involving the AZT and bike racers, that accrued when the Arizona Endurance Series planned a shuttle from Picketpost south to Tiger Mine. Two riders pushed the 911 button, both were rescued by the Sheriff. Scott was at the Tiger Mine TH when a sheriff went past heading to pick up the second guy. "What the hell are your people doing out there?" and he did not sound happy.

Of course it would also be very bad for the event if someone did die. So yes push the button if you feel you are in immediate danger that you can not get yourself out of.

As a free solo rock climber people used to tell me, your going to die. When I first started solo bikepacking a very experienced SAR person told me if you keep going out there alone your going to die. A very famous climber from the 90's said "no climb is worth dying for, but some climbs are worth risking dying for" Paul Piana was one of the first to prove that you can free climb El Cap.

The AZT is not worth dying for, but it is worth risking dying for. In the days before spot's and cell phones that work on so much of the course, death was perhaps a real possibility. I doubt the Sheriff would put a stop to the event out of concern for riders, but if riders pull emergency services away from other duties then yes I do believe it would be a possibility.

[mtbcast]

#AZT19 -Day 5 late night call from Paul Wissenbach!

http://mtbcast.com/site2/category/azt19/

[bmattingly]

One of the beautiful aspects of the long rides is the isolation in wilderness, committing to move through it under your own power and to be away from many of the conveniences of life.  Shit does happen when you are out there, like it does in other sports.  If the rider made a move for water then I trust he was in an emergent decision and likely did the right thing.  Good job!  SAR teams are well funded and organized and their job is to rescue people lost or hurt.  Thats what they sign up for.  Good job for them helping out.

I had a buddy experience heat exhaustion on top of a 2000 foot route we did in Nevada at the summit.  He ran out of water and it wasn't pretty.  We did not have to call for a rescue, but he was touch and go for a few hours.

Good to see the leaders cranking the 750.  Close.  Lots of water up on the rim this year.

[schillingsworth]

Liz Sampey is right on Alice's record pace from the 2015 750.

Here are Alice's time splits:

Payson    Flagstaff    S. Rim     N. Rim      Utah
5:00:10   7:02:12   8:03:41   9:01:01   9:11:16

*2015 didn't have a Mogollon Rim checkpoint.

[rippling over canyons]

Liz Sampey is right on Alice's record pace from the 2015 750.

Here are Alice's time splits:

Payson    Flagstaff    S. Rim     N. Rim      Utah
5:00:10   7:02:12   8:03:41   9:01:01   9:11:16

*2015 didn't have a Mogollon Rim checkpoint.

It looks like she made it to Payson in 4:18, so she's up by 6 hours. 

[schillingsworth]

It looks like she made it to Payson in 4:18, so she's up by 6 hours. 

Sort of. She may have arrived earlier, but she's still there and now about an hour behind. The earlier splits have gone back & forth and I am a little surprised that Liz was able to keep the Payson split that close/ahead, since she had to ride all the Gold Canyon stuff that wasn't part of the route in 2015. Yet another interesting dynamic to keep an eye on this year.

[PhilOnWheels]

I saw schillingsworth's post regarding the logging detour in Flagstaff - I haven't found a description of the specific Snowbowl snow detour. Can anybody post a reference?

[Jalene]

Liz Sampey is right on Alice's record pace from the 2015 750.

Here are Alice's time splits:

Payson    Flagstaff    S. Rim     N. Rim      Utah
5:00:10   7:02:12   8:03:41   9:01:01   9:11:16

*2015 didn't have a Mogollon Rim checkpoint.

Alice will retain the female SS record even if Liz beats her record time, though, right?

[schillingsworth]

I saw schillingsworth's post regarding the logging detour in Flagstaff - I haven't found a description of the specific Snowbowl snow detour. Can anybody post a reference?

Here you go:
When the AZT crosses Snowbowl road (after the logging detour), go left down Snowbowl road, then right on US180, then right on FR151. Finally, take a right on FR418 and rejoin the AZT.

[schillingsworth]

Alice will retain the female SS record even if Liz beats her record time, though, right?

Correct. Alice currently holds the women's overall record & SS record from the same ride.

[schillingsworth]

Really nice to see Ken Waring get back on route. I'm guessing he had some sort of mechanical as he rode into A.J. to an auto parts store. A couple other guys are in A.J. now, hope all is well.