And your training regimine is....?

[houtsg]

Spent the last couple of years racing road (crits/RRs), and MTB (3 hour marathon last year/Cat 2 and 1 this year) and almost completely neglecting my love of camping.  Have decided that what I really like to do is ride long and (mostly) alone.  Plus, I want to camp more.  Seems like the Ultra scene and/or some good high pace (think fast-packing for those who prefer to camp on the hoof) bikepacking could be the ticket for me.  So, I'm wonderning how some of you train for the ultra events?  Are you spending most of your training time just building endurance/toughness, or are you mixing it up with some tempo rides and anaerobic training?  Have to admit, I enjoy the endurance and tempo training, but not much for the anaerobic.  I appreciate your insights!

[BigPoppa]

I trained for the Tour Divide like so:

Trained for full length Xterra off road triathlons, complete with tempo, interval, and strength training.

On top of that I did long rides starting about 9 months out from the race. Initially they were 4 hours, then 5, then 10, then 12, then two days, then three days....

That pretty much did it for me.

[sthig]

I am training for the TD -

I usually do 20 hours of week with slow and fast twitch work (long distances at slow twitch, intervals during the week)

[Done]

For the CTR this year, I mostly bike-commuted to work. About 34 miles round-trip, mostly flat bike paths and bike lanes. Lots of high-intensity efforts, such as fartleks. Some running too. Situps, pushups, and pullups in the winter months. I could obviously do a lot more, but time is always the limiting factor.

I'm never going to win any races with my training, but I have been able to enjoy myself!

[LyndaW]

Mixing it up gets the best results.

[krefs]

Mixing it up gets the best results.

LW knows, and I agree completely.

And whenever I start to feel my head getting tired of riding within a couple months of a big event, I get off the bike and spend some time doing something else...hiking, relaxing car camping, catching up on work that I should have done when I was riding, etc. You can have all the fitness in the world and still never finish an ultra if your head isn't in the right place.

[ride MT]

Mixing it up gets the best results.

yeah, but there must be some parameters of training hours/miles....Krefs, I think I saw you did 1000 hours last year? That's more what the OP is looking for I bet...

[raybum]

I'm not a super experienced ultra racer, but in training for the AZT300, I just made sure I was doing enough long rides (50-70 miles) but more importantly, doing them back to back days.  Gotta figure it's one thing to go out and do 10 hours in the saddle, its another to do that day after day.  Mixing in some higher intensity stuff was good too as others have said.  Some might disagree, but I think in putting in those long rides, I think it's better to do two days of 6 hour rides, than one big 12 hour day while training.  I mean, you gotta mix in a biggie so you know how your body reacts, but if it sacrifices your overall volume due to rest, then it's probably not helping much...

[moabjason]

Doing alot of bike packing is good training. Finding out how minimal you can go on gear. Learning to survive on what you run across (gas station food). I have learned so much by just going out on overnighters and multi day trips. I have witnessed racers winning on experience that were not the fastest of the bunch.

[DaveH]

Lynda & I have written a ton about this on 2-epic and lwcoaching.com.  The general periodization I favor goes like this:

1. High intensity block (3-8 min interval type stuff).  Depending on starting point, rider may need to get a month or so of easier stuff under their belt before starting this.

2. Threshold work (20-60 min power focus).

3.  Tempo (60-180 minute power focus) + endurance work

4.  Event specific work.  Overnights, dialing in gear, nailing nutrition for long rides etc.  Specificity!

Of course, there is a ton of crossover between those areas above, and absolute training stress in each area is important. This is all best managed using a power meter, and if you've really got the hang of the power meter *and like using it*, the performance manager charts in WKO+ are da bomb.

That's my 40,000' view, anyway.  That said, training is almost a taboo topic for bikepackers.  IME though, training towards a goal is a ton of fun and immensely satisfying.  There are 1,000 ways to skin a cat - some might prefer to just ride a lot and do great on that plan too.  Never worked for me though.

[THE LONG RANGER]

Your training and the form from it is probably better than the vast majority of us. I would suggest not focusing on the physical, but rather the mental.

[ron]

I train by having 4 kids 5 and under, with the youngest being 2 days old by C-section which means I'm Mr. Mom around the clock for at least a week.

Oh wait, you weren't talking about the sleep dep?

[mikepro]

For this recurring "how do you train" type of question/post, I found this discussion from awhile back to have good insights from Erik L, Steve W, Toby G, et al ...

http://www.bikepacking.net/forum/index.php/topic,2805.msg27797.html

[flanagaj]

Sorry for reopening an old post, but I have a similar question regarding training.  I have been upping the mileage and have got to the stage of being able to do 80 mile road ride Saturday and 100 mile road ride on Sunday.  Total riding time was 11 hours.  I would then add in a fast 40 mile Tempo road ride on Tuesday and then a flat out 40min spinning session on Thursday which is always at my AT.  eg average HR of 168bpm

So, I then started doing 5 hour rides on my 29er loaded up with my lightweight bikepacking gear.  Did a 5 hour 50 miler yesterday and then another 4 hour ride today.  Although I ride to my HR and keep it down to an average of 140bpm and make sure I eat plenty of carbs I just find bikepacking rides so hard going. 

If I find a 5 hour ride tough, how the heck do you get to the stage where 10+ hours in the saddle day in day out is doable.

I am starting to think that genetics is the reason that some people just have a natural ability of having that diesel engine, and can keep going and going.

Interested to hear what others think on this.

Thanks

[dream4est]

Sorry for reopening an old post, but I have a similar question regarding training.  I have been upping the mileage and have got to the stage of being able to do 80 mile road ride Saturday and 100 mile road ride on Sunday.  Total riding time was 11 hours.  I would then add in a fast 40 mile Tempo road ride on Tuesday and then a flat out 40min spinning session on Thursday which is always at my AT.  eg average HR of 168bpm

So, I then started doing 5 hour rides on my 29er loaded up with my lightweight bikepacking gear.  Did a 5 hour 50 miler yesterday and then another 4 hour ride today.  Although I ride to my HR and keep it down to an average of 140bpm and make sure I eat plenty of carbs I just find bikepacking rides so hard going. 

If I find a 5 hour ride tough, how the heck do you get to the stage where 10+ hours in the saddle day in day out is doable.

I am starting to think that genetics is the reason that some people just have a natural ability of having that diesel engine, and can keep going and going.

Interested to hear what others think on this.

Thanks

I doubt that most bikepackers have a natural diesel. I train way less than you, never use a HR monitor, eat donuts and find a 15-20hr day not to be a problem. Its all about the pace, the breaks, the food, the mind, etc. I can barely fathom a true road bike century in training- but I pulled off a 195 miler in the Tour Divide this year. It aint genetics for me its all muscle memory now. I know I can ride all day and if needed all night. But it took racing to get to that level. Not genetics practice for most.

Maybe since you ride usually for 4-6 hrs and go hard you cant break free of that mentally. Go out and do a slower practice ride full loaded, like 2/3rds speed for 10 hrs. Dont worry about miles per hour and beats per minute. Worry about miles per day and dont go hard enough to hear your heartbeat. Works for me. I take breaks whenever I want and dont beat myself up mentally over time splits and such. After 5 hrs why not eat a real sit down meal and continue the training ride? Not all bikepack racers go hard for 10-12 hrs daily in the race. Some go less intensity with more breaks. Some even less with lots of night riding. Some harder with later start earlier finish.

Also, riding outside your normal riding timeframe may help u extend rides. And a 5-hour energy drink after 5 hours is a nice boost.

[flanagaj]

Maybe since you ride usually for 4-6 hrs and go hard you cant break free of that mentally. Go out and do a slower practice ride full loaded, like 2/3rds speed for 10 hrs. Dont worry about miles per hour and beats per minute. Worry about miles per day and dont go hard enough to hear your heartbeat. Works for me. I take breaks whenever I want and dont beat myself up mentally over time splits and such. After 5 hrs why not eat a real sit down meal and continue the training ride? Not all bikepack racers go hard for 10-12 hrs daily in the race. Some go less intensity with more breaks. Some even less with lots of night riding. Some harder with later start earlier finish.

That is an interesting thought.  I do still have that short race style mentality of riding to a HR that I think is ok, getting my adequate carb intake per hour ...  But on reflection, maybe I am just riding at too high a HR for these longer rides.  I try my hardest to keep it low, but find it difficult as at times I feel like I will stop if I go any slower.

I never stop on my rides to have a coffee or grab a 'proper' meal, and instead just slurp my energy filled camelbak and eat my my energy laden bars.  This is mainly because of time constraints and family.  

I wonder too if my nutrition could be half of the problem.  Given I always have adequate simple carbs to hand when I ride, I wonder whether I need to rethink the training / nutrition regime like others have mentioned, so that my body becomes more adept at burning fat as the primary fuel source rather than relying on glycogen.

This is an article I just found regarding burning fat instead of carbs http://highfive.co.uk/high5-faster-and-further/burn-fat

[EndoAgain]

I contacted Lynda Wallenfells via her web site and told her what I wanted to do. I had followed two of her plans to do three ultras the year before and found her structured workouts were reasonable and what I needed to stay on track. She had me on a modified CTR training plan for the TD. Breaking my shoulder in Feb canceled out 6 of my 18 weeks but I still found her fitness routine had me more than prepared physically. Longest I did was two back to back 10 hr days. She had called for a few overnighters which I also did and found her tips on nutrition and pacing from her ultra racing tips worked well for the TD too. Most of my training was on flat bike paths or on the computrainer. Virtually zero hills or trail due to my location and constant rain/snow. I was concerned her plan did not have the mileage I would need especially missing 6 weeks of training but I had great legs for the event. Trust her plans. My biggest TD deficit was in not being totally proficient with my bike packing/camping craft but in the end that didn't matter. Her training plan had prepared me to take the line and get through the first week then I learned the rest as I went along. By the last week I had it dialed. You cannot go wrong by getting on her web site and asking her for her advice but remember to read her guidelines for requesting fitness plans. She explains what she needs (background, training time, goals, etc.) so remember to include it and her advice will be in my opinion, spot on.

[cjdunn]

A lot of these guys have more experience than me but I'll give my two cents. 

Yes, bikepacking rides are hard. They are especially hard if you are approaching them with an XC mindset which it sounds like you are doing. 

50 miles in 5 hours with bikepacking gear is too fast unless you are doing it on the road.  It is really tough to average more than 7mph bikepacking on singletrack.  At least for an all day ride.  I generally figure I'm doing pretty well if I can average 5mph give or take for 10 hours.  If it is a hard trail like AZT and/or I'm riding for 12+ hours 4mph is probably more realistic.  Sometimes you just have to stop and eat and rest a little so your average speed will go down.  For me, the longer the ride the more stopped time there is going to be.  The only way I can usually pick up my average speed is by stopping less, not riding faster.  If I need to go 100 miles in a day then I'm just going to have to ride for 15-20 hours. Riding faster for 10 hours is not going to end well for me.  With this philosophy I've had pretty good luck finishing long rides/races with very little experience or training.  I'm in no danger of winning but finishing is pretty cool. But that's just me. 

This is me. I'm 52 years old and only really started riding frequently a few years ago.  I've done a couple of seasons of XC racing in cat 3 50+ then cat 2 50+ where I finished both seasons on the podium.  I started doing a few AZ Endurance series races three years ago.  These typically last (for me) 6-8 hrs.  I did my first solo 24 hour race at the OP this year and did 13 laps for something like 210 miles. This was much more than I imagined I could ever do.

I am certainly not bragging here because these accomplishments are nothing compared to what most folks here can pull off.  I only list them to make this point.  I'm old, I'm addicted to Dr. Pepper and Doritos and I don't train, I just ride.  I ride hard when the race or ride is short and I ride slow when it is longer.  If I'm bikepacking I try not to even sweat! I never wear a heart rate monitor and have only done intervals about three times in my life.  The only numbers I keep track of are miles ridden, hours per ride and vertical gain per ride which sometimes I just guesstimate.  I have never ridden more than 1800 miles in a year.  I did my 200+ mile 24 hour race having ridden only about 250 miles in the previous 2 months.  The secret for that was knowing myself, picking a lap time that seemed ridiculously slow and sticking to it. On every lap I ate and drank on a schedule and stuck to it also.  It can be really tough to force yourself to go so slow but it pays off in the end.  There is a bunch of physiology behind it that is worth learning but ultimately you have to listen to and learn from YOUR body to figure out what you can do.

Having said all that, if you want to really be competitive then you will probably want to do more structured training and I think Lynda is probably your best bet for training plans.  My wife used one of her XC race plans this year and really loved it and had great results and there are lots of testimonials on this forum about how well her endurance plans work.   

Sometimes I think people think training plans are like magic pills though.  I think they will work but they can also drive you into a hole. Sometimes you just need to forget all those numbers and learn to listen to your own body and learn from all of the experienced folks here.  Krefs (look him up) told me once, "You'd be surprised how far you can go if you just keep eating and drinking."  That was at the beginning of my first ever bikepacking trip and I did 100 miles that day.  I had never even done 100 miles on an unloaded bike before. It was so nice to ride along with him for the first 30-40 miles and see how a "pro" does it.  He can just noodle along and talk and eat and sometimes take photos and sit on a log to eat real food yet still seems to be able to knock out big miles and long hours day after day.  I just did what he did and it worked. Of course his recent AZT 300 record probably looked a little different but his average speed was still only 6.7mph.  He just never slept for 45 hours.  But think of that.  One of the fastest ultra racers set an amazing record and his average speed was less than 7mph.  That ought to give you some perspective on the kind of average speed you should expect from yourself.

Another great pearl of wisdom I figured out early on was for long races/rides never redline yourself. That's using fuel you will be needing later.  Again there's some physiology/biochemistry stuff that explains this but really all you need to know is that you have to go slower than you CAN for a given section of trail. If the trail gets steep but you will really have to hammer to make it, walk.  If you could ride it on your big chainring if you push it, shift to your little chainring and spin up it.  It can be hard to get over the feeling of strong legs.  When my legs feel good I want to just hammer along because it just feels so good but for all day rides it just comes back to bite me in the end.

Like I said I'm no expert and I'm kind of new at this but by being disciplined about eating, drinking and SLOW pacing I have found I can ride all day without any serious training.  If I can do it you can do it.

[flanagaj]

A lot of these guys have more experience than me but I'll give my two cents. 

Yes, bikepacking rides are hard. They are especially hard if you are approaching them with an XC mindset which it sounds like you are doing. 

50 miles in 5 hours with bikepacking gear is too fast unless you are doing it on the road.  It is really tough to average more than 7mph bikepacking on singletrack.  At least for an all day ride.  I generally figure I'm doing pretty well if I can average 5mph give or take for 10 hours.  If it is a hard trail like AZT and/or I'm riding for 12+ hours 4mph is probably more realistic.  Sometimes you just have to stop and eat and rest a little so your average speed will go down.  For me, the longer the ride the more stopped time there is going to be.  The only way I can usually pick up my average speed is by stopping less, not riding faster.  If I need to go 100 miles in a day then I'm just going to have to ride for 15-20 hours. Riding faster for 10 hours is not going to end well for me.  With this philosophy I've had pretty good luck finishing long rides/races with very little experience or training.  I'm in no danger of winning but finishing is pretty cool. But that's just me. 

This is me. I'm 52 years old and only really started riding frequently a few years ago.  I've done a couple of seasons of XC racing in cat 3 50+ then cat 2 50+ where I finished both seasons on the podium.  I started doing a few AZ Endurance series races three years ago.  These typically last (for me) 6-8 hrs.  I did my first solo 24 hour race at the OP this year and did 13 laps for something like 210 miles. This was much more than I imagined I could ever do.

I am certainly not bragging here because these accomplishments are nothing compared to what most folks here can pull off.  I only list them to make this point.  I'm old, I'm addicted to Dr. Pepper and Doritos and I don't train, I just ride.  I ride hard when the race or ride is short and I ride slow when it is longer.  If I'm bikepacking I try not to even sweat! I never wear a heart rate monitor and have only done intervals about three times in my life.  The only numbers I keep track of are miles ridden, hours per ride and vertical gain per ride which sometimes I just guesstimate.  I have never ridden more than 1800 miles in a year.  I did my 200+ mile 24 hour race having ridden only about 250 miles in the previous 2 months.  The secret for that was knowing myself, picking a lap time that seemed ridiculously slow and sticking to it. On every lap I ate and drank on a schedule and stuck to it also.  It can be really tough to force yourself to go so slow but it pays off in the end.  There is a bunch of physiology behind it that is worth learning but ultimately you have to listen to and learn from YOUR body to figure out what you can do.

Having said all that, if you want to really be competitive then you will probably want to do more structured training and I think Lynda is probably your best bet for training plans.  My wife used one of her XC race plans this year and really loved it and had great results and there are lots of testimonials on this forum about how well her endurance plans work.   

Sometimes I think people think training plans are like magic pills though.  I think they will work but they can also drive you into a hole. Sometimes you just need to forget all those numbers and learn to listen to your own body and learn from all of the experienced folks here.  Krefs (look him up) told me once, "You'd be surprised how far you can go if you just keep eating and drinking."  That was at the beginning of my first ever bikepacking trip and I did 100 miles that day.  I had never even done 100 miles on an unloaded bike before. It was so nice to ride along with him for the first 30-40 miles and see how a "pro" does it.  He can just noodle along and talk and eat and sometimes take photos and sit on a log to eat real food yet still seems to be able to knock out big miles and long hours day after day.  I just did what he did and it worked. Of course his recent AZT 300 record probably looked a little different but his average speed was still only 6.7mph.  He just never slept for 45 hours.  But think of that.  One of the fastest ultra racers set an amazing record and his average speed was less than 7mph.  That ought to give you some perspective on the kind of average speed you should expect from yourself.

Another great pearl of wisdom I figured out early on was for long races/rides never redline yourself. That's using fuel you will be needing later.  Again there's some physiology/biochemistry stuff that explains this but really all you need to know is that you have to go slower than you CAN for a given section of trail. If the trail gets steep but you will really have to hammer to make it, walk.  If you could ride it on your big chainring if you push it, shift to your little chainring and spin up it.  It can be hard to get over the feeling of strong legs.  When my legs feel good I want to just hammer along because it just feels so good but for all day rides it just comes back to bite me in the end.

Like I said I'm no expert and I'm kind of new at this but by being disciplined about eating, drinking and SLOW pacing I have found I can ride all day without any serious training.  If I can do it you can do it.

Thanks very much for that thought provoking response.  To be honest, you have hit the nail on the head here.  Given my background has always been 1-3 hr flat out XC mountain biking or road racing then I suspect I am carrying that mentality across with me.   The mind shift having been fixated with average speed and average heart rate figures for so many years is never going to bode well when translating that to bikepacking.

I just had a quick look at my 50 mile 5hr fully loaded ride on Saturday and found that I had a total altitude gain of 4700ft.  Which isn't a great deal, but there were some hills and on reflection 10 mph average is maybe asking far too much.  That's maybe explains the reason why I wake up the next day with very tired legs and struggle to do the same again.

The more I read your post, the more I think you offer some real great tips.  I especially like the 'walk if it means redlining up the hill'.  I have always thought of getting off and walking as a sign of defeat.  I need to realise it's not and I am just conserving energy.

[cjdunn]

I'm glad my essay helped.  I had to make the mindset shift myself but I figured it out pretty quickly by doing a bunch of research here and talking to experts on bikepacking and endurance racing.  One thing you may discover is that bikepacking pace is really enjoyable.  It is really hard for me to imagine XC racing being fun anymore.

Also, I used to think the same thing about walking being defeat until I did some races where just about everybody walks some sections.  There's no shame in walking (up or down) if it will eventually help you finish hours later and in one piece.

One more thing.  I tend to look at ride difficulty by average elevation gain per mile.  It is pretty crude but it gives you an idea of what you are up against.  100'/mile is, at least where I live, an average mtb ride.  10 miles=1000' of elevation gain. Usually this means lots of small hills but nothing brutal. Just fun riding. 150' per mile is going to be a really good workout.  200' per mile is going to crush me if it is a long ride.  300'/mile means I'm going to be doing a lot of HAB!  Now look at the profile of trails like the CT and you will see some sections that climb 2000'-4000' in 4 miles or something crazy like that.  It doesn't mean it is unrideable but you can count on that upping the overall average feet/mile to make a tough ride.  I think the Colorado trail averages something like 120-150 feet per mile which doesn't sound too awful but some days are going to be much more so you are going to be moving much slower.