AZTR Rules Carousel

[davew]

Context is everything.

As a stand alone statement I wanted to comment on the irony of this comment being used but someone else did and it went unheralded and I cannot find it again to quote them and say touche/well done sir.

... they're just ideals to strive towards.

I think this comment brings us full circle (again). Again Im taking this comment out of context of the text it came from as I gave up reading these long novels 3 pages ago but it is synonymous of the rules as a whole and the race.

The ethos, spirit, ideals, and origins of the bike packing races in North America are unique to that area. While they are under the umbrella term bike packing and share many of the same rules they have a definite feel and uniqueness you don't get other places and the rules (in their limited form) are a big part of this. This hands off, honour system, doing something truely mentally and physically draining is the reason many of us travel there to race/suffer. It would be heartily disappointing if the AZTR turned into every other generic mountain bike race. Thankfully there is a wealth of people here with much more pull and acumen to keep the race from falling into a shit show.

While deep diving down into the minutiae of the rules has been interesting to a limited extent I feel it is akin to a meeting making amendments to a 30 page definition on what the missionary position is. 99.99% of us would understand a one sentence explanation and have adequate gumption to at least get the basics right to achieve the desired goal.

Maybe we could have a Rules Discussion sticky thread and start it with links to previous threads for a historical perspective.

[holtharlan]

I've been out of the "I'm a racer" seen for a while now but still dot watch and read the race forums regularly. there is a lot on this thread so if I missed this already posted - sorry. I'm pro Lael she does a lot of good on the bike and off. Now there are some questionable things going on here. My biggest head scratcher... after all the "media BS" that happened on the divide, she and her team knew (very well) what kind of hornets nest they would stir up filming this!! you cant tell me they didn't know the rules and the controversy. I'd like to see her line up at the group start (no BS) and kick ass.   

[phatmike]

While deep diving down into the minutiae of the rules has been interesting to a limited extent I feel it is akin to a meeting making amendments to a 30 page definition on what the missionary position is. 99.99% of us would understand a one sentence explanation and have adequate gumption to at least get the basics right to achieve the desired goal.

This is amazing and almost lost a sip of coffee. Well done.

[phatmike]

...I'm pro Lael she does a lot of good on the bike and off....I'd like to see her line up at the group start (no BS) and kick ass.   

I really looked up and admired Lael before the most recent controversy. Hard to completely dismiss her positive impact to under-represented communities, though in my opinion some (lots??) of the shine of that is tarnished due to the price that others pay/have paid in the fallout of the controversies. It's sad because the outrage towards race directors and rule supporters could have been quelled if Lael would have asked for it to be. She didn't, and that is not excusable.

To your point about wanting to see her line up with no BS... I think that's what everybody wants. She's strong as hell. But no second party videos/pictures means nobody is inspired I guess.

[jsliacan]

As a stand alone statement I wanted to comment on the irony of this comment being used but someone else did and it went unheralded and I cannot find it again to quote them and say touche/well done sir.

It's hard to guess what you want to say here. But do notice that the context I referred to was the specific ruleset that was being discussed back there while the context you refer to is the wide history of the event (unavailable to everyone, near impossible to dig up from the depths of unindexed internet in less than a week, etc.).

The ethos, spirit, ideals, and origins of the bike packing races in North America are unique to that area. While they are under the umbrella term bike packing and share many of the same rules they have a definite feel and uniqueness you don't get other places and the rules (in their limited form) are a big part of this. This hands off, honour system, doing something truely mentally and physically draining is the reason many of us travel there to race/suffer. It would be heartily disappointing if the AZTR turned into every other generic mountain bike race. Thankfully there is a wealth of people here with much more pull and acumen to keep the race from falling into a shit show.

Having clear and transparent rules that do not rely on unknown amount of buried information doesn't turn an event into a generic mtb race or a shit show. Thanks.

The system is only "hands off" in some areas (which I support of course). However, managing someone's emotions (via e.g. restrictions to emotional support) in 2022 does not seem like hands off to me.

Ideals are great, but by their very definition often unattainable. Hence the discussions about where to draw the lines.

While deep diving down into the minutiae of the rules has been interesting to a limited extent I feel it is akin to a meeting making amendments to a 30 page definition on what the missionary position is. 99.99% of us would understand a one sentence explanation and have adequate gumption to at least get the basics right to achieve the desired goal.

I know. There isn't any ambiguity in the rules, everything is clear to everyone and nothing can be improved. Case closed. Thanks davew.

Maybe we could have a Rules Discussion sticky thread and start it with links to previous threads for a historical perspective.

Sounds like a good idea at first, but then you realize that people aren't willing to read novels in just one of those threads (right?) and will assume they know everything without reading stuff. I still think this is a good idea.

[ScottM]

I think it's safe to say that for almost everyone who has done a US-style bikepacking race the reading of the rules is obvious (not banning all media, talking about a support crew, etc).  But we must allow for those with a different background and those that have possibly been misled, too.

Holt, I agree it is quite puzzling.  Lael invited me over to dinner a week or two before her ITT.  Her concern at the time was not getting an official record because she might need to skip singletrack on the North Rim due to snow.  I encouraged her to ride anyway and not worry about records or any possible asterisks.  She seemed keen to ride and I always try to encourage people to ride anyway.  Whether Rue was going to follow along was not mentioned, kind of the elephant in the room.  Since I'm not the RD I didn't feel it was my job to bring it up.

An index to major (and epic!) rules discussions is a decent idea, for those with too much time on their hands!

In other news, from TD 2022, in all CAPS!

IMPORTANT: SINCE 2019 EDITION OF TD, MUCH HAS BEEN DEBATED OVER THE ROLE OF MEDIA (ON COURSE) IN SELF-SUPPORTED DIVIDE RACING. WHILE TD IS NOT YET READY TO BAN ALL MEDIA, ENTIRELY, FOR GRAND DEPARTS, PERSONAL MEDIA TEAMS FOCUSING ON AN INDIVIDUAL RIDER WITH INTENT TO FOLLOW THEM ON COURSE CAN INJECT UNDUE MORAL HAZARD INTO THE EQUATION. IT HAS THE NET EFFECT OF SECURITY BLANKET FOR A RIDER ON THE EDGE, AND THUS POSES ARTIFICIAL PSYCHOLOGICAL UPLIFT.  THEREFORE, IT WILL BE DEEMED AS A FORM OF SUPPORT GOING FORWARD. TRUE ALONENESS IS PRIMARY TO THE TD CHALLENGE AND A PERSONAL MEDIA TEAM CONFLICTS WITH THIS TENET.

Edit: these are not my words.  I wouldn't write in all caps.  They were attributed to me on the TD FB group where some discussion has ensued, mostly in support.

[jsliacan]

My biggest head scratcher... after all the "media BS" that happened on the divide, she and her team knew (very well) what kind of hornets nest they would stir up filming this!! you cant tell me they didn't know the rules and the controversy.

I've said this a few times already, but let me repeat. They pretty much did what Josh Ibbett had done at TD19. If he was ever relegated as Scott said, it has not been publicly recorded anywhere (so nobody knows about it, including them presumably). All public records suggest or state he finished fifth (not relegated finish). There was no major, or even minor, outrage about it. What they did at AZTR22 had worked at TD19.

[jsliacan]

In other news, from TD 2022, in all CAPS!

IMPORTANT: SINCE 2019 EDITION OF TD, MUCH HAS BEEN DEBATED OVER THE ROLE OF MEDIA (ON COURSE) IN SELF-SUPPORTED DIVIDE RACING. WHILE TD IS NOT YET READY TO BAN ALL MEDIA, ENTIRELY, FOR GRAND DEPARTS, PERSONAL MEDIA TEAMS FOCUSING ON AN INDIVIDUAL RIDER WITH INTENT TO FOLLOW THEM ON COURSE CAN INJECT UNDUE MORAL HAZARD INTO THE EQUATION. IT HAS THE NET EFFECT OF SECURITY BLANKET FOR A RIDER ON THE EDGE, AND THUS POSES ARTIFICIAL PSYCHOLOGICAL UPLIFT.  THEREFORE, IT WILL BE DEEMED AS A FORM OF SUPPORT GOING FORWARD. TRUE ALONENESS IS PRIMARY TO THE TD CHALLENGE AND A PERSONAL MEDIA TEAM CONFLICTS WITH THIS TENET.

Edit: these are not my words.  I wouldn't write in all caps.  They were attributed to me on the TD FB group where some discussion has ensued, mostly in support.

I have to say this is pretty clear with regards to personal vs neutral media. So that's undoubtedly good. Apart from that, it's all about the self support angle. I guess the TD doesn't worry too much about the footprint as it has loads of road sections.

On a related note, did anyone think of setting up a TD website as GitHub page? All changes would be logged and timestamped, changes can be submitted by anyone, discussions can be had there directly, etc. Maintenance minimal. And everything would be public (if you train for 2 years to do a TD, it's kind of late to be presented with the rules at the sign up to trackleaders, imo) so people know what they are heading into. Results should also be public, otherwise breaking rules doesn't have visible consequences in most cases. Anyways, just an idea.

[ScottM]

I've said this a few times already, but let me repeat. They pretty much did what Josh Ibbett had done at TD19. If he was ever relegated as Scott said, it has not been publicly recorded anywhere (so nobody knows about it, including them presumably). All public records suggest or state he finished fifth (not relegated finish). There was no major, or even minor, outrage about it. What they did at AZTR22 had worked at TD19.

Huh, and yet when she was asked about it that wasn't mentioned.  It would be nice if you didn't keep repeating things for which you have no evidence.  Or at least state them as such -- a mere possibility, and an unlikely one at that.

What she did say is she didn't think race rules applied as much to ITTs and that nobody cared during her 2015 filmed AZT ITT that I approved (while missing key differences between that project and this one).

As further backgound here she did ask permission for filming a CTR ITT, in 2021 I believe.  She posted that Rue wasn't going to be in the state of Colorado during the attempt, in deference to Jefe's wishes.  But then that attempt was canceled for unrelated reasons.  So, no, I really don't think they are using the Josh example (which is another case of not understanding the differences).

It's still a bit of a head scratcher.  Given the CTR situation I thought that she had accepted that personal media crews were not going to fly in the triple crown races.  But I was wrong.

[ScottM]

I have to say this is pretty clear with regards to personal vs neutral media. So that's undoubtedly good. Apart from that, it's all about the self support angle. I guess the TD doesn't worry too much about the footprint as it has loads of road sections.

It's a bit less of a concern for non-singletrack races.  Public roads vs trails that are created and maintained by volunteers. 

But yes, all about self-support here, though the same page is all about minimizing effect on route locals, commercial establishments, etc.  There is still a big responsibility of racers towards the route and the event.

For example this year Parks Canada is requiring start waves and we're hoping everyone will comply, for the future of TD.

On a related note, did anyone think of setting up a TD website as GitHub page? All changes would be logged and timestamped, changes can be submitted by anyone, discussions can be had there directly, etc. Maintenance minimal. And everything would be public (if you train for 2 years to do a TD, it's kind of late to be presented with the rules at the sign up to trackleaders, imo) so people know what they are heading into. Results should also be public, otherwise breaking rules doesn't have visible consequences in most cases. Anyways, just an idea.

Not a bad idea.  Matthew likes that the website is out of date and results are not officially published.  It keeps the event underground to a certain extent.  I don't necessarily agree because it has other consequences, some of which we've discussed here.

[AZTtripper]

Hey Scott juts playing internet tough guy keyboard worrier, it's not for me to say. I would have thought not dying would trump all other rules, I talked with Doc about ruptured spleen's he said it's real easy to miss, no one should die and DNF themselves from life for the race.

[jsliacan]

Huh, and yet when she was asked about it that wasn't mentioned.  It would be nice if you didn't keep repeating things for which you have no evidence.  Or at least state them as such -- a mere possibility, and an unlikely one at that..

I don't think I commented on why they did what they did. I only use publicly available info and I wrote that extremely similar situations led to vastly different outcomes. So the consequences are very hard to predict. Hence it's not exactly fair to ask "what were they thinking?!". It's hard to know what to think...

One thing that keeps dragging with us is that decisions and actions are justified by private information. Why are we then surprised that the general public isn't understanding of the situation? Maybe it isn't so much the rules but the overall non transparency in the process that's causing friction? Don't know, just thinking.

[jsliacan]

For example this year Parks Canada is requiring start waves and we're hoping everyone will comply, for the future of TD.

Interesting. Good to know.

Not a bad idea.  Matthew likes that the website is out of date and results are not officially published.  It keeps the event underground to a certain extent.  I don't necessarily agree because it has other consequences, some of which we've discussed here.

I see, it's probably an effective trick too. Although, FB group might provide the event with more exposure than a small website. So the key difference is then probably that it isn't run by the RD. Maybe the same thing could work with a website. It would be on others (us) to run it then. Though results would be hard to publish without a word from the RD... So it might not be such a good plan. Don't know.

[ScottM]

Hey Scott juts playing internet tough guy keyboard worrier, it's not for me to say. I would have thought not dying would trump all other rules, I talked with Doc about ruptured spleen's he said it's real easy to miss, no one should die and DNF themselves from life for the race.

Yep, I know that you get it, Tim.

Maybe this spleen case was one-off and I'm being overly worried with respect to sleeping in public places, etc.  But that case really spooked me -- that he almost died... for race rules.

[ScottM]

One thing that keeps dragging with us is that decisions and actions are justified by private information. Why are we then surprised that the general public isn't understanding of the situation? Maybe it isn't so much the rules but the overall non transparency in the process that's causing friction? Don't know, just thinking.

Transparency is another ideal to strive towards but we will always fall short.

I'm afraid to say that a big part of the problem here is the fear of being 'canceled'.  That has a huge affect on making people not want to speak publicly about things.

I see, it's probably an effective trick too. Although, FB group might provide the event with more exposure than a small website. So the key difference is then probably that it isn't run by the RD. Maybe the same thing could work with a website. It would be on others (us) to run it then. Though results would be hard to publish without a word from the RD... So it might not be such a good plan. Don't know.

TD would very much like for the FB group to go away.  It helps in some areas and causes issues in others.  But yes, I would like to see something worked out where open source results (and rules?) can be out there with some authority but not too much authority.  It's tricky.

[taprider]

The new Tour Divide icon is appropriate given the previous pages of discussion

[jsliacan]

Transparency is another ideal to strive towards but we will always fall short.

While true, the amount of misunderstanding around RD's decisions is probably correlated with how far from transparent they are. And more generally, I think we have way more control over these "shit storms" than we admit. From the way things are communicated, to the processes around these decisions, to the underlying rules, etc. Who knows how many unpleasant situations could have been prevented regardless of what the rider did. I am saying this because there were suggestions in this thread that Lael should've communicated things better to her fan base, that she could've been more transparent about her intentions, etc. As valid as those demands are, I don't see many such questions being asked inward: was the relegation communicated/explained well? Was the decision transparent enough? Etc.

I'm afraid to say that a big part of the problem here is the fear of being 'canceled'.  That has a huge affect on making people not want to speak publicly about things.

I've heard this before, yes. That said, I am unsure whether it's a justified fear (in the scheme of things). Who cares about the opinions of uninformed internet trolls? The rest seems quite civilized - not always pleasant, but civilized enough.

TD would very much like for the FB group to go away.  It helps in some areas and causes issues in others.  But yes, I would like to see something worked out where open source results (and rules?) can be out there with some authority but not too much authority.  It's tricky.

I will be interested to see if and how this evolves.

[jsliacan]

I'm considering the implications of relaxing the rule about helping other racers.  The good Samaritan in me wants to never discourage anyone from helping, period.

I've thought about this a little, but the most serious issue I can find is that people would team up, e.g. lending a tool to a friend and not to someone else.

[jsliacan]

The footprint of this year's TD is sizeable already in the first week: https://fernie.com/blog/bike-race-consumes-search-and-rescue/. On top of that some are normalizing sleeping in post offices (as something we all do, which we don't) https://www.instagram.com/p/CeyhsaSLRAe/?igshid=YmMyMTA2M2Y=.

Let's see what the 2nd week brings...

[taprider]

On top of that some are normalizing sleeping in post offices (as something we all do, which we don't) https://www.instagram.com/p/CeyhsaSLRAe/?igshid=YmMyMTA2M2Y=.

I think he is teasing, since he has only slept at the Llama Ranch and Red Hawk Lodge so far