CTR 2012 Race Discussion

[aaron w]

In the Tour Divide "pre-arranged support" is clearly defined as support arranged BEFORE the race clock starts ticking.  Right after this years races started, folks paused to use their phones to arrange hotel accomodations for the night.  Totally within the rules. 

I have assumed, perhaps incorrectly, that the defenition for pre-arranged was the same for the ctr.  In my mind calling around to shops to find a bike part etc was legit once the race clock was ticking.   

[DaveH]

First, Matt has been mischaracterized here (the "whatever works for me" line...).  As I read it, he is new to the genre and merely trying to wrap his head around the implications of a seemingly simple (but realistically complex) ruleset. 

I did the same when I started, hammering back and forth with Curiak, and still getting things wrong in his eyes.  A guy offered me an orange at bedrock way back when during GLR and I declined, thinking it was outside support.  He told me post-event that would have been ok...

Part of the CTR rules FAQ:  "Using a mobile phone to call ahead for any services along the route is the same as pre-arranged support, and as such, is strictly forbidden."  Yet, pre-arranged support is allowed in the form of PO drops. How calling ahead for anything can be construed as pre-arranged support makes no sense to me (that "pre" moment passed when the event started).

Is it any wonder a newbie would be confused?  I'm confused!

I propose 2 things:

1.  Somebody (cough cough) start a new thread for the annual post CTR traumatic analysis syndrome.
2.  We welcome new riders here as we would on the trail.
3.  All eyes turn to Kurt as he rips his way along the route.

[Matt Schiff]

Matt if you truly are just trying to get more clarity so you don't unknowingly break rules, hopefully the above answers to those questions clarifies them.  

It is about clarity for me because the purpose of some rules eludes me. There are many people taking a stab at bikepacking racing each year. The self supported format is completely new and rules new. It's easy to read a sentence and think, "did they really mean this?". I guarantee you could ask a rookie racer if they were allowed to use their cell phone to call a shop while in town and they might say "I think so" or "I'm not sure" or "I think the prearranged support thing really has to do with your buddies helping you out or setting things up before the race, otherwise you would just think there would be a cell phone ban".

I think back to the cell phone post I was reading where Scott Morris talks about inequity being solved by the blue dot app. Inequity of material goods will always exist in this country of haves and have nots! I can't afford one right now, but more importantly lets compare the issue of checking trackleaders (to adjust your race strategy) and checking the weather report (deciding whether to go for it or hunker down) on your smartphone to calling a shop in town. One is permitted but frowned on perhaps and the illegal. Since rules aren't just random, they serve a purpose, what is the purpose of each rule? This is where the premise of fairness and equality doesn't seem to explain it. What premise am I missing?

Here's an analogy. If you're good at math or physics, you don't memorize how to solve every type of problem. You understand certain principals and use that to solve many types of problems. If you understand the premise or what the rules are based on. It's easy to know what will be allowed or not allowed from all the 1000s of scenarios that could take place in the field. If there is a disconnect between the rules and the purpose they serve then you have to do some heavy thinking and make your own calls out in the field. This is where my nightmare the morning after finishing the race about hood stitching regulation is particularly telling. I subconsciously felt (at the time I had not given this amount of thought to the issue) this was about memorizing rules rather than understanding the premise on which they were based and applying it.

Anyone have comment on Jarrals brakes issue?

[Matt Schiff]

In the Tour Divide "pre-arranged support" is clearly defined as support arranged BEFORE the race clock starts ticking.  Right after this years races started, folks paused to use their phones to arrange hotel accomodations for the night.  Totally within the rules. 

I have assumed, perhaps incorrectly, that the defenition for pre-arranged was the same for the ctr.  In my mind calling around to shops to find a bike part etc was legit once the race clock was ticking.   

You have to be like Carmelo in this year's Olympics. He was applauded for his quick thinking as he swatted a ball from above the rim. In the NBA there is goaltending. In international rules its not until the ball falls through the hoop and before that anything goes.

[Done]

Matt has been mischaracterized here (the "whatever works for me" line...).  As I read it, he is new to the genre and merely trying to wrap his head around the implications of a seemingly simple (but realistically complex) ruleset.

That assessment arose when I read this comment:

But my next ride/race and those that follow will be different. I won't worry. Who is anyone else to verify or nullify my efforts? I'm riding for myself. Can you hitchhike forward or only backward in the TD if your bike brakes? I don't care! Nearest bike shop makes sense. Put an asterix next to my name. My effort and journey was pure!
(no disrespect to race organizers)

Sorry to Matt if he feels that I went overboard by characterizing this as a "whatever works for me" sentiment. In the same post, he also expressed a desire to understand the rules, so he's obviously wrestling with how to sort all of this out--like most of us!

[mikepro]

Anyone have comment on Jarrals brakes issue?

From reading his blog, Jarral's mechanical situation in Eureka in this year's TDR involved him hitching a ride North across the border to Fernie, CA to get parts/repaired.  This is/was "backwards" on route, which is legit to do in a motorized vehicle by TDR rules.  I don't have an issue regarding how he went about solving the mechanical issue, and don't see rule breaking in this situation.  To me, this is standard ops ... ride bike, bike breaks, walk/coast/crawl to nearest town, small town with nothing but pie, go to nearest big town to fix bike (just don't hitch "forward" on route), get back to route, ride bike.

Same situation as Craig S in Grants, NM during this year's TDR - pedal breaks, no pedals in Grants, takes something like 24 hrs to get pedal from nearest other town.  This involves lots of back-and-forth across the town of Grants and phone calls.

In my mind, calling around to bike shops in other towns to find out if they have a part, and coordinating how to get said part and then repaired, is legit during the race.

The part about calling ahead for pizzas, or checking weather apps on smartphones, booking hotels in advance, is just silliness.  Others can go ahead and do it, because I know it doesn't give them any advantage or disadvantage.  It just is the way that it is.  The physical effort of riding these routes at race pace far outweighs all the other "stuff".  If you're stressin' that some other racer called ahead for a hotel, and you didn't, then your focus is in the wrong place.

[Matt Schiff]

Toby

That line was more of an exercise in utilizing the slippery slope fallacy. I was saying, if you have the attitude that we're out there just to ride, there are a few simple rules, and everything else you can figure out and make the call on since it's not life or death, this is what might happen.

My real feelings, real position on all this, lays hidden. I'm not showing my cards. ahahahaha

No, my feeling is this:
1. Are we riding time trials or racing each other? If we're racing each other then we're checking trackleaders and strategizing based on time gaps. We're riding with people because that's our competition and we want to keep an eye on them. If we're time trialing we don't need to check trackleaders and you don't hang around people except passing by chance. I'm sure with more thought/time I could develop this idea further. It's really a matter of solo versus group ride and using outside info to influence race outcome and pace or just doing your own thing and riding as fast as you can. It doesn't matter whether you check the internet in town or on your phone. This year I would say at the front of the race the TD was more leaning towards people racing each other while the CTR was more leaning towards time trialing.
2. Talking about the race with your friends/family and getting tips is the same as having your buddy bring a cooler. Is this who wants to be a Millionaire lifeline or what? Talking with your friends/family can't be banned because you have to tell your daughter you love her and if you're a big shot business man you have close the deal. Having friends meet on trail just to say hi is the same. Why is it the same? It's a support team. If it's unexpected, you can't control what others do.
3. There will always be some sort of inequity. Some will get drenched in a storm while other miss it. Some have a $10K 23lb full suspension, others have a $1000 five year old bike. Some have the best and lightest gear, others have crappy gear. etc. etc. For any unexpected/random hospitality/offers, accept it if you want. Don't act like an idiot. "Um sir, I'm in this race and the rules say I can't sleep inside but I could accept sleeping on the barn floor". "Okay, I was trying to be nice, you're a freak, just leave." Don't act like you have an arm cut off if you don't. If you want to call ahead and see if they have a hotel room, do so, everyone else can. This to me doesn't create race inequity an more than the inequities that already exist from the start of the race. This is nowhere on the level of having a friend give advice, directions, weather info, placing a cooler, etc. Here we're talking random luck or services publicly available to all. If someone gets killed for 5 hours in a storm but the people in front of them miss it, they deserve to have the driver stop on the side of the road and offer them a place to stay and warm up.
4. Equal for all should be the guiding principal. I raced the Firecracker 50 and at the top of Boreas Pass Rd the guy next to me had his buddy hand him a camelback. I wish I didn't have to carry 2-3lbs of fluid. To eliminate that local advantage is the purpose of all the rules to me. Anything is else is just style.

This isn't a list of race rules that are easy to follow or what I feel is "the right answer", just my opinion, which includes preference on style. The reason we have this discussion is we've chosen to legislate some style while leaving other to interpretation or allowing it. (And because some people feel very strongly one way or the other).

And as for Jarral brakes, I didn't know the outcome of that. I thought he was somehow getting delivery in Eureka.

[dream4est]

Trying to find loopholes in the rules was one of the reasons Curiak stated in his GDR rules that people in that frame of mind should "wait a year" until they are ready to play by the rules and not find ways to work around them (Nobile's windshield comes to mind).

If Stefans 3 rules and 8-10 Q and A subset is not clear to you, wait a year until it is. Matt's set of questions in a previous post can be easily answered by reading the CTR rules. There are no grey areas IMO.

If the rules state you can use a cell phone for for anything under the sun BUT PREARRANGING SUPPORT, then live with it and ride the CTR following Stefan's rules. If you dont like it ITT the damn route or organize your own friggin race.

If the rules state that "Get in a car and your race is over" DON'T GET IN A CAR. Do not try to "interpret" what it means. If you are in the CTR wondering whether you can get in a car, if it is moving, what about motorhomes, etc. then you dont understand the rules and should wait a year.


Also,

If your racing teammate shows up to ride with you, tell them no.
If your friend wants to give you a soda at Hwy 9, decline.
If the nearest hotel only has one room left, pedal your ass off to get that room.
If you didnt bring a friggin shock pump, dont ask other racers for one. Get to a town and figure it out.
If you leave a cooler at Georgia Pass, you should expect me to eat ALL your candy bars.
Planning to ride as a team is a total dick move. Go home if you cant ride in the forest alone.

[THE LONG RANGER]

(puts on maaaanly voice) Self supported seems so giiiiiirly. We all sound like a bunch of school girls debating this, like we fight about prom dresses. 

The solution is basically that we race unsupported - bring all the food you need to eat at the start line, no use of any commercial services, no trail magic of any kind, and no electronics: you get a map and bring a compass.

And all of sudden, we have a new race! The UnsupportedCTR! The times will be (much) slower, the attrition rate will be (much) higher and the rules are even simpler! There's an adventure race!

[ride MT]

(puts on maaaanly voice) Self supported seems so giiiiiirly. We all sound like a bunch of school girls debating this, like we fight about prom dresses. 

The solution is basically that we race unsupported - bring all the food you need to eat at the start line, no use of any commercial services, no trail magic of any kind, and no electronics: you get a map and bring a compass.

And all of sudden, we have a new race! The UnsupportedCTR! The times will be (much) slower, the attrition rate will be (much) higher and the rules are even simpler! There's an adventure race!

+1000
hahahahaha!

[Roland Sturm]

Yeah! And that way the discussion might also move more into the direction of what you need in the backcountry rather than how little to carry. At least two races this year (Stagecoach and CTR) already saw Spot emergency buttons pushed because people got thirsty or tired and cold. Now THAT does wonders for the image of bikepack races.
 
Justin's full self-reliance approach might be too adventurous for myself, but I'd rather be on his side of the dividing line (and therefore tend to be overpacked on equipment with 2 types of water treatment, 2 ways to pump up a tire, patch kit and tubes, safety food supply, etc) than on the side were the discussions have been going: Start as well prepared as for a road criterium and then niggle about rule interpretations. Seems like some riders didn't even bother carrying patch kits. The CTR rules are simple and clear to me.

I like the rides both because of the endurance aspect and being far away from roads, not because I want to plan out a race from motel to convenience store to motel. Ok, I won't bring snow shoes like Justin and while I've done Great Divide sections before with maps, by now won't want to give up GPS. And if I have to ride past a convenience store, I will fill up with cola.

[THE LONG RANGER]

I'm actually a big admirer of the CTR, the racers within and Stefan's super-simple rules. I think for this course, the rules are already pretty perfect.

You can almost simplify them to, "Ride like Jefe!", as you know he's overflowing with integrity. Putting in an incredible time not by skirting the rules, but simply by dedicating the time in the route. 10 times through? That's incredible. Again, I'm biased, as I also am a big admirer of that guy. Mere mortals are we! (uh, I!), bickering on mere mortal things.

[Done]

And all of sudden, we have a new race! The UnsupportedCTR!

Alright then, when's the staring date Justin. And who do you have lined up to race? I'll enjoy the show. And maybe I'll join you--if I can figure out how to strap 50,000+ calories to my bike!

All sillyness aside, I think that the CTR comes as close to unsupported racing as is practical. That means that it necessarily falls somewhere between unsupported and supported. In other words, the gray zone we're all debating: self-supported. To me, self-support means striving toward no support, but recognizing that certain things like resupplying in towns is simply necessary to make the event functionally possible. Maybe it's possible to race the CTR without stopping in towns--but I'm really not sure that there would be enough people willing or able to do it to qualify as a race!

Sitting in cars, eating out of well-positioned coolers, calling for navigational assistance, bumming spare parts from other riders are all examples of things that simply aren't necessary if one prepares well and works hard. On the spectrum between supported and unsupported, these are (in my mind at least) clearly too far toward the supported side.

[elobeck]

(just don't hitch "forward" on route), get back to route, ride bike.

BTW,
The TDR has updated/acknowledged that forward is okay, in case of severe mechanical etc. AS LONG AS ONE RETURNS TO WHERE ONE LEFT OFF and it isn't prearranged, preplanned or abused.

On the topic of unsupported. Sweet. All of the ultras are begging for this. I want to see the first unsupported TDR. BOB trailers might be back in vogue.

[THE LONG RANGER]

On the topic of unsupported. Sweet. All of the ultras are begging for this. I want to see the first unsupported TDR. BOB trailers might be back in vogue.

Don't give me such ideas!

But really, if Curiak can basically do the Iditarod unsupported, I mean - bar's already set. You could probably do a 7 day uCTR with a (relatively bulky) pack and a good frame bag system full of food and a ultra light setup... plus a fishing pole.

Again, don't give me ideas. I'll meet up a bike manufacturing rep. and they'll ask what next year is going to look like, and I'll blurt out something like these ideas.

[Matt Schiff]

BTW,
The TDR has updated/acknowledged that forward is okay, in case of severe mechanical etc. AS LONG AS ONE RETURNS TO WHERE ONE LEFT OFF and it isn't prearranged, preplanned or abused.

Exactly, as people discuss what doesn't make sense ideas get considered and change happens. Having the attitude that if you don't like the rules don't race (I'm not bitching, I'm discussing. Does an online forum discussion ever not end in name calling, distortion of opinions, and fights?) doesn't seem in tune with grassroots, for the people racing, and having the attitude that if you don't understand the rules, wait a year (mature) doesn't solve misunderstandings either. You do nothing and next year there's tons of cheaters again (is this a real issue or an online forum issue?) and by in large, I don't think it's a discussion of integrity or moral. When you get ready for the race you focus on gear and logistics of riding your bike. I bet few visited the FAQs as much as me but I still needed clarification so I know I'm not the only one.

God I hope I get that job offer soon. This endurance conversation has no end.

[Done]

You could probably do a 7 day uCTR...

Talk is cheap, Mr. Long Ranger. Put up, or shut up.

[dream4est]

The Curiak idea of stay above the rules is the meaning behind the "wait a year" deal IMO. Instead of thinking why  just stay above or at the very least just follow the rule or rules. If one doesnt like it by all means pull a Matt Lee and form your own race. I would be the first to sign up for the uCTR. Or uAZT750. But for CTR we need to stop the human urge to attempt to CHANGE things. Things are fine the way they are Stefan style. Every new racer is trying to reinvent the wheel. Well the wheel is not broke. This new internet world of constant demanding change needs a reality check.

[joeydurango]

Things are fine the way they are Stefan style.

Agreed!

[the tortoise]

I am not going to debate the rules and their "interpretations" cause that is a never ending forum battle.

What I would like to talk about is the safety issue, rescue and "when to push the button"
Rescues take place in the back country all the time and I am sure bicycles are not in the majority of the rescues. More likely hikers, ATVers, Jeeps and climbers. If rescue personnel bitch and moan about yuppies or unprepared people then they are in the wrong business. If they are paid, then that is job security for them. If they are volunteers then they should look to do something else.
If people push the button "too soon" so be it. Almost everyone of us have loved ones back at home and if we were not to come back to them because we didn't push the button because real men don't push the button, it wouldn't be a good thing. I coach cross country and I have seen kids get in serious heat issues in less than one half hour. In the back country help usually takes a while to arrive and if you wait too long then it could be a matter of life and death or permanent damage.

On the Tour Divide several of us came very close to being in danger with hypothermia, but we got lucky cause we came across a hunting lodge where we could take refuge. I was pissed at myself for being unprepared to handle the conditions that I got caught in, but even if you learn that lesson and are prepared for cold and rain next time, there are always new lessons to learn! We all put our lives on the line when we are out there taking on these adventure races, and there are things you can't prepare for. I say push the button when you feel you are in any sort of danger. The armchair quarterbacks can always second guess you, but I am sure your family and loved ones will be glad you did.