CTR 2012 Race Discussion

[Done]

Can we stop talking about the "rules" now?

No. This stuff matters. Discussion and thought are good things.

[Matt Schiff]

Can we stop talking about the "rules" now?

I wasn't trying to discuss what the rules should be. I was pointing out that to me they were confusing. You could be DQ'ed for doing something you didn't realize was wrong. The only nightmare I had was waking up 2 hours after finishing and mumbling to my sister to check my hood stitching. Apparantly I thought I might have been in violation of the stitching my hood. I guess the issue affected me enough that my subconscious was making fun of it.

[joeydurango]

Yes, discussion and thought are good.  Take it too far and you're beating a dead horse.  Discussion and thought are only productive if they lead somewhere.  And the only way to make this issue go anywhere is by A) making everyone think exactly the same thing about rules in bikepacking, which isn't going to happen, or B) creating that SSEBA I was talking about, which I obviously think is a poor idea.

[pharmvet]

On the Appalachian Trail, the maxim is "Hike your own hike"

I guess it's simply the addition of "race" to the Colorado Trail that engenders this kind of intense discussion.  IMO, the rules, as stated on CTR website, are pretty simple.  My personal feeling is that if I wondered if what I was intending could result in a DQ, then I probably shouldn't do it.

Ultimately, everyone will make their own decisions out there based on a variety of inputs.  No one can be there to police or monitor those decisions and, frankly, given the exact same circumstances, we might all come up with a different answer.

Keeping the rules simple and straightforward seems like the best plan.  To modify the maxim above, "Ride your own ride".  At the end of the trail, only you will know or frankly care if you lived up to the standard.

Personally, I feel that the more I think about this stuff, the more I realize I should be riding more instead! 

[joeydurango]

I couldn't agree more.  Right on!

[Woodland]

On the Appalachian Trail, the maxim is "Hike your own hike"

I guess it's simply the addition of "race" to the Colorado Trail that engenders this kind of intense discussion.  IMO, the rules, as stated on CTR website, are pretty simple.  My personal feeling is that if I wondered if what I was intending could result in a DQ, then I probably shouldn't do it.

Ultimately, everyone will make their own decisions out there based on a variety of inputs.  No one can be there to police or monitor those decisions and, frankly, given the exact same circumstances, we might all come up with a different answer.

Keeping the rules simple and straightforward seems like the best plan.  To modify the maxim above, "Ride your own ride".  At the end of the trail, only you will know or frankly care if you lived up to the standard.

Personally, I feel that the more I think about this stuff, the more I realize I should be riding more instead! 

Touche

[Done]

It seems to me that the current ultra-racing format is headed to the lowest common denominator: mediocrity. Rather than continue to evolve as a format that necessitates that people rise WAY out of their comfort zones to attempt something truly exceptional, it's being diluted by the conveniences of "good enough" lassitude. Adventuring has never been about just athleticism--it's always been defined by what one has to give up in order to succeed. Between endless trail magic, calling mommy whenever one gets off-route, calling ahead to get a sandwich or reserve a cozy room for the night, sharing gear because one didn't plan well enough, etc., racers are looking more and more like pampered theme-park patrons than hardened adventures accepting responsibility for their own success or failure. The new mantra of many seems to be "Do. It. Yourself. Unless, of course, you can't or don't want to."

Screw that. Maybe I'm swimming against the tide--but it's more fun than taking a ride down the toilet of "good enough." Fortunately, I'm still far from alone (if by far the most vocal)--although I'm feeling more and more like a minority at the moment.

But before anyone gets tweaked out that I'm bashing them, I'll reiterate something I said earlier: There's room for two different styles out there. You can climb a big mountain as a "catered client," or attempt it solo without oxygen. You can take a Carnival Cruise tour around the world, or you can enter the Vendee Globe. You can race the CTR without support, or you can get a pizza delivered to Spring Creek Trailhead. Both styles look like fun, and I'm sure they are great experiences. Great, yes; but not the same.

[THE LONG RANGER]

It seems to me that the current ultra-racing format is headed to the lowest common denominator: mediocrity.

Or your classic bell curve, where the Jefe's, Ethan's, and Jesse's on that extreme right and those that blatantly disregard the rules (forward hitchhike, cache of supplies) on the extreme left.


I got nothing more to add, except I hope to meet up with Jefe one day on the trail, the dude is a major inspiration, especially how he races. Made props, Jefe!

[Done]

Or your classic bell curve, where the Jefe's, Ethan's, and Jesse's on that extreme right and those that blatantly disregard the rules (forward hitchhike, cache of supplies) on the extreme left.

Very, very true. While I can't move as fast as those guys, I certainly aspire to move as cleanly as they do...

[simonns]

Congrats to all who finished and even those that attempted it like myself. Still am feeling bad about having to pull out after the ten mile
section, I was feeling good that day and actually enjoyed it. I met Jason Murell during this part and we both did it in around three hours
to the top so I was thrilled after hearing about a possible 4 hr hike a bike. At the top I fell hard after losing my balance while crossing
the boulders and after going to the doc this week I found out I tore my rotator cuff so surgery is in the near future. Even with my mishap
I am looking forward to next year and with a wealth of knowledge gained this year even as short as it was.

Hey Greg, sorry to hear about your shoulder. Heal up quick. I was up early after that first night on Kenosha pass. A mouse bit me on the thumb at 3 am so I decided to get up and start peddling. Looking forward to seeing you out there next year from the comfort of my computer.

-Simon

[Done]

Kurt Refsnider starts tomorrow:

http://trackleaders.com/ctri.php?name=Kurt_Refsnider

He's downplaying his effort, but it'll be fun to watch him regardless of how fast he goes. With the route so fresh in my mind, I'm looking forward to following his blue dot and re-living some recent memories. Go Kurt!

[joeydurango]

Toby, don't fall into the fallacy of assuming that anyone who disagrees with your legalism is an iPhone-wielding, hitchhiking, gear-begging wuss.  I disagree with your insistence that everyone can Think Just Like Toby, but I personally adhere to the self-supported ideal.  I expect no one to help me during my adventures, and I come prepared.  I assume I speak for some others that you've been maligning.

Also don't just put those fast guys up on a pedestal because they're fast.  Nothing against them - they're great guys - but they face the same issues as the rest of us, and I'm sure some of their past decisions would tweak you.  

I'm not positive anyone is "clean enough" to race in the Toby League.  I don't like the influx of Leadville 100 types any more than you do, but just remember that excessively legislating something is a great way to kill it.

[Platform Power]

Just curious.

Would that be the Creede or Lake City Domino's I should put in my smartphone??

 

[Bedrock]

Perhaps I can offer a historical perspective. Henri Desgrange is credited for having started the Tour De France in 1903. Below are a few snippets from wikipedia (I know, the worst source of credible information on earth). It appears this is not the first time discussions like this have occurred.

Henri Desgrange grew up in an era when France had suffered humiliation in the Franco-Prussian War and when he believed the French were "tired, without muscle, without character and without willpower." Desgrange believed that sport and exercise would improve the nation physically and morally. It was a belief that he lived out in his own life, timing himself to walk across his bedroom even days before he died.
He believed the Tour de France had to be gruelling, to the extent that the perfect race for him would be one that only one rider could finish, because he needed it to inspire, to extend the limits of human achievement. Many of his rules, which now seem arcane, were to that end. He forbade riders to cooperate with each other, banning tactics now taken for granted, such as sharing the pacemaking. He insisted competitors mend their own bicycles and accept no outside help because independence and self-sufficiency were everything to him. For the same reason, he stood out against variable gears long after they had become common elsewhere.
The historian Bill McGann said:
Desgrange and Lefèvre had a tiger by the tail ... It was a strange Tour and no one is sure exactly what happened. Because the stages were so long, the riders were required to ride at night. Even with Desgrange's men doing what they could to watch the race, cheating was easy. Some were accused of hopping in a car. Others took trains. Moreover, Desgrange's race had lit fires of passion among racing fans that would almost be the ruin of the race.

Desgrange's opinion of the fighting and cheating showed in the headline of his reaction in L'Auto: THE END. He wrote:
The Tour de France has just finished and its second edition will, I fear, be the last. It will have died of its own success, of the blind passions which have been unleashed, of the abuse and of the suspicions that have come from ignorant and ill-intentioned people. And yet, however, it seemed to us and it still seems that we had built, with this great event, the most durable and the most imposing monument to cycle sport. We had hoped to each year bring a little more sport across the greater part of France. The results of last year showed that our reasoning was correct and here we are at the end of the second Tour de France, sickened and discouraged, having lived through these three weeks of the worst slander and abuse.

[elobeck]

just a thought, but it seems like the rules debate is less about caching stuff (illegal) and more about dealing with advances in technology. In this case communication technology seems to be at the forefront. Not many people talked about 29ers when they arrived on the scene....
gps seems like fair game, not many question it. Are satellites orbiting in space "outside support"?
 
This is neither here nor there.
 Maaaaybe, in order to quell incessant ongoing debate, a general rules template for all? or each? ultra race should be voted on every x years. What wins, stands , until the next iteration 4 ? years away? i.e. following the model of presidential elections?

just a thought.

 

[Done]

Toby, don't fall into the fallacy of assuming that anyone who disagrees with your legalism is an iPhone-wielding, hitchhiking, gear-begging wuss.  I disagree with your insistence that everyone can Think Just Like Toby, but I personally adhere to the self-supported ideal.  I expect no one to help me during my adventures, and I come prepared.  I assume I speak for some others that you've been maligning.

Also don't just put those fast guys up on a pedestal because they're fast.  Nothing against them - they're great guys - but they face the same issues as the rest of us, and I'm sure some of their past decisions would tweak you.  

I'm not positive anyone is "clean enough" to race in the Toby League.  I don't like the influx of Leadville 100 types any more than you do, but just remember that excessively legislating something is a great way to kill it.

Come on Joey, you know that nothing that I've proposed is either unique or new. It's more a collection of stuff that dates back to the origins of ultra-racing, with some stuff from other well-established self-support-based events thrown in. It's far from "legalism" and there is NOTHING that difficult to understand or follow. Here's the link, in case you lost it: http://tobygadd.blogspot.com/2012/05/ultra-racing-rules.html

Mischaracterizing my position isn't cool.

[Done]

Just curious.

Would that be the Creede or Lake City Domino's I should put in my smartphone??

 

Probably both!

[joeydurango]

Ah, I give up.  Trying to get you to understand what I'm saying is like this:    Hell, I agree with most of the rules you want to see followed - I just don't think we can expect such a detailed list to become a voluntary standard, and I think regulatory oversight will kill what makes underground racing special.  You don't seem to understand how fuzzy "okay" and "not okay" can be, considering a thousand different scenarios and a hundred different ultra racers.  It must be wonderful to always know exactly what is right and wrong in any given situation, in a split second's time.

I'm going to go finish repairs and then go home... have a lovely evening.

[LonestarJ]

I want to give a big shout out for Jason Osborn.  We crossed paths several times. After racing down from Kokomo Pass in a rain storm Jason offered us a spot to sleep near him at Camp Hale.  We were very grateful.  The last time I saw him was at the Avalanche TH as he passed us while we were drying clothes out.  I know if I had tried to ride all the way to Durango I would be well behind Jason.   The truth is I don't think I would be able to make the complete distance in one try unless I was touring.  This time I rode as hard as I could everyday.  It seems six days may be my limit.  I had real trouble eating while on the trail and by day 5 1/2 I was bonking.  This will be something I need to work out for future rides.  I discovered I like going to bed early and
starting to ride again about 3 am. I would rather ride knowing it is getting lighter instead of darker.  Riding for 18 hours every other day seems very doable for me.  I have lots of experience with 24 hour solo races so this may be a benefit.
Since riding the complete trail in one try is probably over my head next year maybe I will start in Durango and stop at Hwy 50.  Then I would have at least ridden all the sections.
I had a fantastic time and got my Colorado fix for another year. Now to dream of 2013.
I hope three other racers ( Walt, Berry, and Jason) who did not have a spot were able to finish.  The last time I saw them was at Mt. Princeton.
Congratulations to all the riders who started.  Attempting the challenge makes you all a winner.
Special congratulations to Jefe, Ethan, Jesse.

Thanks Wendy!

It was a pleasure to ride with you too.

And Thanks to all those that were watching my dot and rooting me on to the finish.

some thoughts and photos of my CTR experience are here:

http://blog.privateercycling.com/2012/08/13/ctr-2012---the-summary.aspx

http://blog.privateercycling.com/2012/08/13/ctr-2012---day-by-day.aspx

Enjoy!

Jason Osborne
CTR 2012 - Laterne Rouge.

[Bral]

I probably missed it but has anybody heard how to return the Spot units?