CTR Trail Closure

[Done]

Does the FS have the authority to keep anyone off of the CT?

That's a great question! I have assumed, perhaps incorrectly, that the FS can stop this event if they want, for pretty much whatever reason they choose. Somewhat like the BLM did with the KTR.

[Done]

Dave,

As I stated before, I have worked on a professional trail crew as a chainsaw operator, so I know what I'm talking about when I state that riding through a cutting area is potentially life-threatening for both the workers and the riders. The sign clearly indicated that the trail was closed for cutting operations, and the evidence of what that entailed was visible for some distance before the sign. Truly, I find it morally unacceptable to put people's lives on the line for the purpose of the CTR. This isn't an inflammatory statement--it's an honest opinion grounded in personal experience.

It is also my opinion, supported by the evidence, that pissing off federal land-management agencies is a bad thing for ultra-racing. The KTR is a good example of this. A bunch of decent and well-intentioned guys chose to ignore the BLM's regulations--and fines were handed out and the race was shut down. I believe that sometime similar is likely to occur if participants in the CTR ignore FS regulations. I would hate to see that happen, and it does make me emotional.

Perhaps you think that I'm trolling because I am very passionate about both of these reasons that motivated my post. But there's an important distinction between trolling and what I'm doing. A troll just wants to create controversy for the sake of controversy. In contrast, I am sincerely hoping that people reconsider their decisions to ride through trail closures with impunity. I would DQ myself if I made a similar error, so I'm not proposing to subject people to something that I wouldn't demand of myself. But I respect the lives of guys with chainsaws, and I love the CTR--and I actually do put the importance of these above anyone's individual CTR ride (including my own). I'm sorry if that makes people mad, but that doesn't make me a troll. I hurts to read comments like riverfever's.

I think that you and I have made our positions clear, Dave. I have tried to lay out a reasonable (if, yes, Matthew, sometimes emotional) argument for what I believe to be important issues. You have made it abundantly clear that you believe that I'm little more than an obnoxious troll who irrationally hates and disrespects other riders. I seems to me that we're not going to change our positions, so maybe we should just leave it at that?

[DaveH]

I think that you and I have made our positions clear, Dave. I have tried to lay out a reasonable (if, yes, Matthew, sometimes emotional) argument for what I believe to be important issues.

Where reasonable is defined as calling out the front half of the CTR field as making morally unacceptable decisions and should DQ themselves.  The issues are ripe for discussion; your delivery is ill-timed and comes off as malicious.

You have made it abundantly clear that you believe that I'm little more than an obnoxious troll who irrationally hates and disrespects other riders.

I don't think you irrationally hate any riders.

You do use the methods of a troll, have from day 1 here - to encase valid arguments.  It's an odd mix of poison and reality.

You most certainly are disrespecting CTR finishers.  You were not there when each had to make their decision and can't possibly know exactly what each faced.  A little trust and respect would go long ways here.  That's the cornerstone of self-supported racing.

Just had to clarify your incorrect characterization of my stance.

Carry on now.

[Done]

Carry on now.

Alright, Dave, you have have the last dig. Glad that we're done now though.

[joeydurango]

I've always been under the assumption that unless 75 or more people are doing the exact same thing, the FS - or any other entity involved - has no true authority.  Thus my implicit questioning of the idea that the CTR can be "shut down" at all, unless more than 75 people show up.  Effectively we're just 10, 20, 40, 68 people who happen to be riding the same direction along the CT all on the same day... just because we all agreed between ourselves that we're seeing who can make it to Durango first doesn't mean anything, as far as I'm concerned.  To me, that's the entire idea behind underground events in the first place.

This is certainly not to say that we shouldn't try to respect the FS or any other "authority", as it will obviously be easier on Stefan and other underground organizers that way.  Their work is already cut out for them without trying to dodge potential "shut-down" threats, even if those threats are in reality baseless.  But I highly doubt any of us that took the trail regardless of the FS sign intended any disrespect.  Speaking for myself and as someone who spent an entire childhood behind everything from two-man crosscut saws to chainsaws (Toby, you're not the only experienced guy on here), I knew the sign was effectively pointless at the time of day I came to it, and that my riding through was not life-threatening to myself or non-existent workers.  As far as the KTR goes - I know a whole bunch of people who simply started the ride when the BLM showed up.  No fines, no nothing, just a bunch of friends riding the KT.  That's underground racing.  If we were worried about ALL the regulations and legalities we'd pay entry fees in exchange for insurance, permits, etc.

As we've seen in this thread, there's a huge range of opinion on this topic, but I think we should all be able to see - extreme positionists included - that pre-CTR-specific signs the decision was in no way a no-brainer.  After Stefan posted CTR-specific signage the decision became very easy, but before that there simply was no absolutely "correct" decision.  Hence the widely varied opinions.  I personally don't see how morality or ethics even comes into the conversation at this point, given everything I've already said in this post and the one previously... ethically either decision could be justified and demonized, and aren't there many more important things in our world to worry about from an ethics standpoint?

Why don't we just let it lie as it is, because no amount of jabbering back and forth on here is going change what's happened.  If the FS wants to get pissed, we're not going to change that now.  Unforeseen circumstances cause unforeseen decisions, and that's part of unorganized events.  If we wanted everything to be cut and dried we'd all be racing the Breck Epic right now... that is, if we each had $1K+ to throw down.

[riverfever]

Toby,

It's probably not good for any trail user to go into an area of any trail that the FS has decided (for whatever reason) to temporarily shut down. I doubt anyone would argue with that as we all enjoy trails. I agree though...it's your timing as well as your tone that is suspect. It can be a buzz kill dude. 

[Done]

After a couple of days of deliberation, I’ve decided to make a change. While I really love this sport, and the CTR in particular, I don’t love the debates about rules, ethics, etc. This is probably contrary to what many people think about me, since I am often at the center of these firestorms. But, while I do enjoy thinking about and discussing how the structure of a sport shapes it and the participants, I really don’t like the venom (mine or anyone else’s) that so often seems to accumulate in the threads. A few loud voices end up dominating the discussion and the quieter and often more reasonable voices aren’t heard. As has occurred here, the result is too often a pissing match between a handful of relentlessly stubborn and emotional guys like Dave Harris and me. What happens when an unstoppable force meets an immovable object? You get the Dave and Toby Show!

So, I will hereby refrain from commenting on anything to do with rules, ethics, and the like on this site. People will be free from my challenges when they bypass trail closures, share gear during races, eat cupcakes and Sloppy Joes, cut the course, whatever. I will not ask tough questions, post dissenting opinions, or otherwise come unglued at them. From the responses on this thread at least, people seem comfortable with their actions, so my rants are not serving any useful purpose anyway.

On a related note, I’ve also put my plans to restart the KTR on hold for a bit. Organizers can’t avoid conflicts over rules, and I’m not sure that I’m up to dealing with situations like this anymore. It’s one thing to get worked up when 25% of the racers in the CTR ride a closed trail when I’m NOT the organizer. But if something like this were to happen during the KTR in 2012, I’d be absolutely devastated. I originally thought that I could draft a clear enough set of rules to avoid situations such as this. But with a little more perspective on the issue, I now believe that to be terribly naive. I found the old thread where Mike decided to stop organizing the KTR due to creative rule interpretations (well, flat-out cheating, according to XXXXX who was there), and now I indirectly understand his frustration.

I’m not changing my opinions on these issues; I believe that these concerns are important and that the future of ultra racing is at stake if they are not taken seriously. But I am going to take my voice offline. If anyone wants to discuss something with me, please feel free to give me a shout. If you’re one of the people who called Dave Harris to bitch about me, please feel free to go directly to me—I’m tough enough hear it to my face, deserved or not. To those who sent me messages of support and encouragement, thanks; sorry to drop the torch, but it’s time to move on.

[Stefan_G]

While this is a very serious subject as it relates to the CTR, I think it would be useful for ALL racers to take a step back and reflect on WHY we even have rules for a race like this in the first place.  I mean, the course is the course, right?  And all that really matters is that everyone rides the exact same course and whoever finishes fastest wins.  Right?

I'm obviously leading you on...  Clearly, the race has to be fair.  Thus the rule for no pre-arranged support.  With no support crews, no food/gear drops (except at a PO), no motel reservations, etc, every single person toeing the line at the start is on equal footing.  Every rider has to do everything by him or herself.  While "under only your own power" and "the entire CTR route" ought to be implicitly understood, they are stated explicitly for clarity.

Unlike any other sanctioned race of this magnitude, the CTR requires no mandatory gear.  Not a rain coat, a space blanket or even a bicycle is required.  I refuse to legislate the type of experience anyone has or wants to have out there.  If you want to freeze, be soaked, and suffer to the brink of death - you have absolute freedom to do so.  Or if you want to drink beers every night and carry a 10 lb tent for spacious sleeping arrangements - git 'er dun!  In the end, it is up to every individual to make your own gear selection that you believe will give you the highest probability of finishing the race.  And finishing it fast!  I do, of course, want to emphasize that this is a race, and if you don't intend on trying to finish it as fast as you can, maybe you should think about touring the course outside of the CTR.

Even though the CTR is an unsanctioned, "underground" race, it is still held on public lands, and thus if we want to continue having a CTR, we have to abide by the rules set forth by the Forest Service or any other United States authority.  "Don't break the law."  This includes last-minute, unforeseen trail closures.  If an individual rider chooses to ignore a trail closure (or a Wilderness Boundary or a speed limit or a stop sign!!) it is solely that rider's responsibility to face any consequences and legal ramifications of his/her actions.  However, as part of the CTR, that rider's actions no longer affect only him/herself - the entire CTR is potentially at stake!

Unfortunately, as simple as the rules of the CTR are, they were not prioritized, and racers were forced to prioritize them internally based on the type of experience they wanted to have.  Racers like Toby, who may be the biggest aficionado of rule ethics and purity, obviously feels that there is no room for argument.  Don't break the law. Period.  Racers like Jesse and several others at the front of the pack, intent on challenging the course record (and/or each other), obviously thought it critical to not miss even the smallest piece of the CTR course.

So, I am again refusing to legislate any racer's experience by disqualification, modifying times, placing asterisks next to names, or changing the finish order.  Every racer arriving at the trail closed sign was faced with the same choice:  to ride the trail or not.  Those who chose to ride the trail did so knowing that it was closed, the detour was a faster option, and that other riders might choose take the detour.  Now it is the responsibility of every racer to simply accept and live with the decision that they made during the race.

In addition, the rule priority has now been set for future CTRs.  "Don't break the law" is at the top!

[JCarr13]

Thank you Stefan for pointing this out.
I really believe that everyone who was faced with that sign or any sign for that matter has a choice to make and that sometimes we have different values. If I ran in to that trail closure sign alone, I may have pressed on with similar assumptions as those faster racers. But at the same time, we need to look at the larger picture. We are small fish in a big pond. Though it may seem like mountain biking is huge now (which it is getting there), we still have very little say when it comes to trail usage. Poaching trails during an event like the CTR is pushing our luck, it is obvious someone would find out. Although, I dont live in Breck, I would be pissed if someone or some group poached a closed trail in my area, especially if it was closed for maintenance.
I understand each riders decision as well thought out and Im not here to argue a point. I just hope we all think about the bigger picture as mountain bike enthusiasts. What would we do if decisions were made due to a few mountain bikers mistakes, whether it be riding closed trails or building illegal ones. Dealing with governmental agencies is often a losing battle, especially when we are in the wrong.
Either way. Hope everyone had a life changing experience on the CTR. What a trip it was.

[jakomait]

did someone have a picture of the sign that the FS had up?

[JCarr13]

yeah Jesse. I have one. email me if you want me to send it to you.
carr@mountainflyer.com

[Stefan_G]

did someone have a picture of the sign that the FS had up?

A couple pictures here:  http://www.bikepacking.net/forum/index.php/topic,2338.msg23658.html#msg23658

Unfortunately, I didn't take a shot of the orange closed sign though.

[Yogi the Barry]

Once you guys get thru debating the Detour Debacle of 2011, perhaps we can open the debate on using, or not using, post offices next year... and then we can tackle something easy like world huger or Election 2012... 
After reading most of this thread, and trying not to gag, it reminds me of the difference between what is legal and what is right [morally]. The two do not always coincide. Trying to put everything into a black or white, right or wrong, category doesn't always work. Many things are in the gray and very complicated...
Seriously: perhaps a CTR 2012 Ethos thread needs to be started...

[fastmtnbiker33w]

I'm probably a bit late chiming in on this thread, but I was RV camped in the meadow about 100 meters down the North Swan road from where the CT crosses.  I was camped up there for a week and talked to quite a few riders.  The morning you guys started, my wife rode the CT from where it crosses Middle Fork Swan to the Dredge.  I took my boy and dog on a walk up the road to the CT then headed down the CT in the direction towards the Dredge.  About 1/4 mile in...after the trail leaves the flume line, it steepens quite a bit and throws a sharp rt hand switchback.  I'd be willing to bet that I've ridden that section of the CT more than any non-Coloradon.  Just before the switch back there was the sign suggesting a reroute due to tree-felling operations.  A couple hours later, when I was back at camp, my wife returned from her ride telling me about the tree felling.  I asked her, "Didn't you see the sign?  The big orange one on the 2 or $300 mount in the middle of the trail?"  She said, "No."  Seriously?  How did she not see it?  It was HUGE and pretty much in the middle of the trail.  She said there were several trees down and most of the crew no hablan ingles.  She had to carry her bike over several downed trees and the crew guided her straight down the mountain (cutting a switchback) to regain the clear part of the trail.

Later that afternoon, after dragging my buddy around Mt. Guyot, we caught Kevin getting water out of the Middle Fork Swan.  I told him about the tree cutting and suggested detour and he said, "I'm going to ride the entire trail."  All I could think was that he probably wouldn't be riding it all if he meets up with that crew.  They're going to be pissed again that they have to stop, make things safe, then reroute this guy to the clear part of the trail.

Later that evening while ambling around camp with the dog and kid, more riders came in debating the now Closed Trail.  I told them that riders ahead of them had taken it.  About an hour after that, Stefan came up and put up his little note. 

A couple days later I talked to a pencil pusher working with contractors that were getting briefed on the "upgrades" they were going to be doing to the meadow that is frequented by rv'rs, tent campers, and Texas wheelchair users.  I asked her about future felling operations in the area.  Her answer will be addressed at the end of my post.

While the CTR is still probably just a small blip on the FS radar, you must consider the fact that you are posting finish times, advertising start times and rules, and gathering ....almost....75 "racers" at one location.  The FS could easily add up all the supporters and "organizers" at the start of this thing and ticket everyone for gathering without or permit or something like that....not that they have the personnel to actually do that, but you never know.

I think that it is awesome that so many people gather to do this at the same time.  I plan on spending next summer scouting most of the sections, doing a hundie or two, and if everything seems good, lining up on Aug. 1 or whatever day everyone decides to gather.  Some of us are social beings and prefer a little bit of company on a mountain bike ride, and racing....albeit not the ultra style....has been a part of my life for 23 years. 

So here's something to think about.  Next year, after you've ridden the deadfall free stretch before you get to the Blair Witch area and pass by the Tiger Run RV park, you cross hwy 9 with just enough rations to make it to the top of Wheeler where you've got nothing but sweet DH to Copper, you roll up on a trail closure sign due to the cutting that is taking place in the area off of the Peaks Trail.  How are you going to detour that one?  Head up to Breck and take whatever Peak Road to the top?  Drop down to Frisco and enjoy a beer or two and take that 3% grade bike path up to Copper? 

You never know what will happen next year.  Fire is always my biggest fear especially after starting this past summer's travels in New Mexico. 

Granted I've never done one of these Ultras requiring the extensive gear collection, I've done plenty of the "free" endurance races around the suthwest and even hosted one.  I also organize an official race that gets 150 racers in the middle of the freakin' winter.  I've always found it quite humorous the attitudes involved in this unofficial non-racing racing crowd.  Most have great attitudes, but occasionally someone whines or vents.  Hell...I've found the seriousness at the pro level to be kind of humorous if not a bit sad.  I'm personal friends with some of the best and have worked with Olympic level elite athletes in other sports.  It would be awesome if they would stop taking things so seriously and have fun via a bit of suffering. 

Maybe if someone wanted to they could print up a t-shirt that says, "I dq'd myself from an unofficial race."   Then put the CT logo on the back with the year stamped on it.  That would be funny.

[Carney]

Here is what the 2nd trail closed sign looked like as I stuffed my face while pondering what to do.

All in all, it's a darn good sign and closure for the FS and since I was riding with my bro who works for the Dilion Ranger District and is one of the folks who can write tickets for such a thing, we gladly rode the detour...

[ScottM]

Maybe if someone wanted to they could print up a t-shirt that says, "I dq'd myself from an unofficial race."   Then put the CT logo on the back with the year stamped on it.  That would be funny.

Haha...

Wow, Carney, that's quite the trail closed sign.

[jryter]

Wow. late response here. I didn't even know it was a problem/controversy. I rode it before the sign got put up....Most would have rode it in the afternoon/evening when no one was working so it wasn't really as safety issue.