Durango to Denver: A Thru-race of the Colorado Trail

[jthops]

Toby, your offer is disingenuous. You're simply trying to back Adam into admitting you're right. You're not interested in helping him out. You're only trying to prove your point - which is just you're opinion. Come on man. In the meantime, you've completely missed his point: he's not making enough money to commercialize anything (only about the amount to pay for a hotel room) and he is not "swimming against any well-established precedent." In fact, he has contributed in many ways, which you've chosen to ignore. I don't know if you caught this, but he makes part of his living from what he writes. Give the man a break.

Don't read his book. Simple.

[Done]

Toby, your offer is disingenuous. You're simply trying to back Adam into admitting you're right. You're not interested in helping him out.

Bullshit. I made the offer because it'll get Adam what he wants (a few bucks to cover his hotel), and it'll make the story freely available to the CTR community where I think it'll be appreciated in the same way that so much other good stuff is. It's a creative and GENUINE offer, and not about deciding who's right and who's wrong. The truth is that nobody's right here--it's just an exchange of opinions and ideas.

If I haven't properly noted my appreciation for his Adam's other contributions, I apologize. Not enough thanks get passed around in general. But it's not really a pissing match of who's contributed more though, is it? I'm proud to have contributed what I can, while others have contributed far more. Seems to me that anyone who does anything, large or small, to perpetuate the non-commercial vibe of the CTR deserves kudos. Hell, you can even throw some my way if you like!

[GrizzlyAdam]

it'll get Adam what he wants

And that's your problem Toby. You think you know what I want.

[Done]

And that's your problem Toby. You think you know what I want.

Sorry if I misunderstood you, Adam. Earlier in this thread, you wrote: "I'm charging money for my short book because I put hundreds of hours into creating it, and because writing is a part of what I do for a living. I won't get rich from DtoD, but I *might* cover the cost of the hotel I stayed at in BV during the race."

If you don't want to be paid for your book, then what do you want?

[jthops]

Thanks Toby. I did use your track. I appreciate it.

[Done]

Thanks Toby. I did use your track. I appreciate it.

You're welcome. Glad it helped.

[GrizzlyAdam]

You seem to think you have my motivations figured out. I'll leave you to your assumptions.

[Done]

Now maybe we can all be friends?

Adam wants to sell his book (at least that's what I think he wants, but now he won't say). I want the CTR to remain free of commercial exploitation.

We're not going to agree on this, and it's not that big of a deal.

[jthops]

Maybe he wants a little more exposure for his work than just posting it on this forum. Not sure, but that would make sense. And there's nothing wrong with it.

[Done]

Maybe he wants a little more exposure for his work than just posting it on this forum. Not sure, but that would make sense. And there's nothing wrong with it.

Yeah, that seems like a reasonable assumption to me as well.

I don't know if vanity publishing projects get better exposure than blogs these days, but I suppose that they probably reach different readers--as per Jill's comment. I don't know how much other stuff Adam has published, but getting a name in the "conventional" realm is still important to most writers that I know. I can't help but wonder if the future of writing is posting it in a blog AND on Amazon. Kind of like many musicians are doing these days (free MP3 downloads, but for-pay concerts).

But that's a topic for another day. I actually come from a publishing family, and this is the kind of thing that we chat about over dinner.

Whatever you want Adam, good luck.

Edit: Before anyone gets their knickers in a bunch over my use of the expression, "vanity publishing," please understand that it's an industry term that refers to self-published books. I also have produced a vanity press book, but it's long out of print (20 years?). "River City Rides," a guide to mountain biking in the Grand Junction area.

[GrizzlyAdam]

"River City Rides" was a free book, then?

[Jilleo]

Out of print but still available on Amazon. New copies are only $114.96: http://www.amazon.com/River-city-rides-Mountain-west-central/dp/0963984209

But that's great that you have a book out there, Toby. You should update the information and put it back on the market.

And, for what it's worth, the term "vanity publishing" has fallen out of favor because self-publishing is an actual viable business venture for many authors these days, and is largely managed by the author/publisher themselves rather than dedicated vanity presses. But this thread has ventured way off topic so I won't derail it any farther. I'm very active in the "independent publishing" community, so it's always a topic I feel compelled to weigh in on. Now, to finally read Adam's book. ;-)

[mountainjah]

Due to all this controversy, now I just have to buy this book.

[Matt Schiff]

wow, look at what I missed as I spent some time riding. toby, you are relentless

[sherpaxc]

Any press is good press huh Adam?  . It must be either too cold or too wet for you northern folk. More riding and less arguing.  At least it has brought some lively conversation to the boards!

[Done]

"River City Rides" was a free book, then?

No. As I recall was ten bucks or something. We sold several thousand through bike shops, book stores, gift shops, etc.

Out of print but still available on Amazon. New copies are only $114.96: http://www.amazon.com/River-city-rides-Mountain-west-central/dp/0963984209

Wow, makes Adam's $3 book seem like quite a deal!

But that's great that you have a book out there, Toby. You should update the information and put it back on the market.

Naw, that was a different time. Trail guides are pretty much obsolete now that everyone posts routes on blogs, etc. Books on really long routes like the CT, GDBMR, etc. are probably best documented by the the organizations that maintain them, so that they can turn the proceeds into more/better trails.

And, for what it's worth, the term "vanity publishing" has fallen out of favor because self-publishing is an actual viable business venture for many authors these days, and is largely managed by the author/publisher themselves rather than dedicated vanity presses.

Self-published books are indeed pretty common. My wife has a current one out, Northern Colorado Plants. My father has several, including Handbook of the Canadian Rockies. Other members of my family also have conventionally published books out there, including my brother's ice climbing book. In my experience, those who publishes their own work are at least somewhat somewhat vain, thus the vanity publishing expression!

toby, you are relentless

Indeed. Seems like I've got similar company at the moment!

At least it has brought some lively conversation to the boards!

For the most part, it's even been pretty civilized. I think that things are winding down though, which is probably good!

[pro_out]

I would say that people are being judgmental about this, but I won't, cause that would be judgmental.

[Shirey]

Can we start the 2014 Planning Thread yet???

[Matt Schiff]

Start one. Own it. This is a thread for constructive feedback about the content of Adam's ebook.

[Trhoppe]

Put me in the camp that more people should charge for stuff. I'd rather get a book that someone edited for $3 than read a bunch of unorganized posts for free.

I'd rather have a GPS track that cost me $5 that is curated and correct than something that someone put together in 5 minutes for free.

If people share stuff for free great, but there are MANY MANY MANY times I'd rather pay a few bucks for more quality than the free equivalent.

Another great example is free online poker vs the $1 games. The free games are poker, sure, but the $1 games get you a much better, more fun experience, as people actually have SOME skin in the game, so they play "for real".