Grand Loop 2010

[ScottM]

Anyone willing to commit to a Grand Loop attempt in 2010?

http://www.bikepacking.net/routes/grand-loop/


I heard recently from Paul Koski, evil mastermind behind the Paradox trail, about some issues with the route just north of Nucla.  There's an 800' section where private property butts up against the Tab Creek wilderness study area.  Current options to resolve the conflict include a 18 mile re-route (!) that features (Paul's words) "four new hike-a-bikes", or a new 800' trail in the WSA that would require... carrying your bike on your back!

Either way it seems likely the Loop is going to get a bit more epic.  The re-route would require new singletrack to be built, which would be a welcome addition to the middle of the Loop.  However, it would also put riders within a quarter mile of Nucla, making resupply a little too easy.  In a way it would be a shame to lose the lack of services on this beast.

I'll keep you posted if I hear more.

[Pivvay]

I am committed to a GL return this may/june when the snow is gone. Definitely keep me posted!

[wookieone]

I want more grand loop!!! So yeah sounds very interesting...I am also wondering about that end of roubideux where there is a hiker and horse rider only sign behind you as you exit onto a main road? That left me wondering last year. Thanks for the update Scott, much appreciated.

[DaveH]

I want more grand loop!!! So yeah sounds very interesting...I am also wondering about that end of roubideux where there is a hiker and horse rider only sign behind you as you exit onto a main road? That left me wondering last year. Thanks for the update Scott, much appreciated.

Just the other day I daydreaming about another GL ride.  Jefe, I know the spot you are talking about.  In '07 somebody had laid aspen branches across the trail to make it unrideable for quite a stretch.  When your at mile 275 what's a guy to do? 

There are other sections of the Paradox that are wonky.  At the end of Glencoe bench is odd - there's a steep hike option, a paradox trail sign and a NFS trail closed sign next to it.  I know some have used a slightly different route to get to Hauser road.  The route through Red Ranch has changed, at least the fences and road use have changed in the last 2 years.

That 18 mile additional singletrack could make the route infinitely more difficult from a timing perspective unless you happened to catch a cool window like last year's rare treat.  18 Koski miles is what, about 4 hours?

I'm interested but sadly the timing isn't going to work this year.  If things change tho...

[gbach]

Just to let you guys know, I lived in Montrose for about 6 years, up to 2006, mtb riding all over the place.  Ranchers and others, possibly not taking kindly to people traversing the Unc plateau, would routinely take out and move carsonite signs, perhaps just to mess around -- not sure why.

[wookieone]

There are rednecks everywhere.....and some crazy mountain bikers too, it is mostly public land, what harm are we the few who ever go thru there doing?

[Pivvay]

I'm sure it's more perceived harm or just power tripping landowners Jefe. For such a remote route compared to others, it sure seems silly eh?

[krefs]

I'm in for 2010, assuming it can be done by the last weekend in May at the latest.  18 miles extra?  What's the difference?  But that close to Nucla?  I don't like that.  The remoteness of the current loop is rather magical.

[ScottM]

The 18 mile reroute definitely won't be done this year, maybe not even next.  

For now riders can decide whether or not they want to 'trespass' for 800 feet.  Maybe we can get the property lines and walk just outside.  The other option is the Nucla detour, all on paved/county roads, as described on the Paradox trail map (basically you cut out just after Tab Creek, then rejoin up on Pinto Mesa).

[DaveH]

Trespass?  I thought the issue was wilderness designation? 

Carrying a bike for 800 feet does not sound like a biggie.  On the Paradox that's status quo already.

[ScottM]

It's both.  'Private' property butting up against wilderness 'study', for all of 800'.  One proposed solution is to build singletrack in the wilderness study area, but that ST would not be open to bikes.

The current GL route (a road that is well marked on BLM maps) goes through the private property.

[DaveH]

This spot?





Right where you headed south for that burger in '06 eh?

Well, forcing the route through Nucla steals a lot of GL magic.  I want no part of that.  Plenty of thick pinyon/juniper right in that area, walking 800 feet would be harder than it sounds, but worth it.  Or you could just ride up that sandy path like we always have.

I guess I'm confused at what the issue is.  Is there one?

[ScottM]

That's the spot, yep.

There is an 'issue', yes, the property owner is suddenly caring about it.  But if you read between the lines, people can make their own choice about it.  I agree that detouring into Nucla is lame and not the true GL, but the official position is that riders should avoid the private property.

Make sense?

[DaveH]

Ah, I get it now.

Didn't you have some contact with that property owner?

I'll agree to stay off his 800 feet of sand if he'll agree not to demolish Glencoe to Tab creek GL route public lands with his cattle.

[ScottM]

No, Koski just told me that the owner would be OK with it (he said he rode through there regularly).  But apparently they've changed their minds.

Agreed on the cattle destruction. 

[krefs]

I'm happy to walk 800 feet.  We should tell the property owner to put up a sign with an arrow.  "Grand Loopers: Continue your slog through the woods in that direction, with your bike on your back ==>"

[krefs]

Now that the GL has slithered back into my head, I pulled up the GPX files for the first time in a couple years to take a look at them again.  When to begin, where to start, and what route to take?  A few questions come to mind:

What's everyone's take on how to include the "prologue" section?  Traditionally it's been done at the start, but last year DH switched things up and did it in the middle of the final day, where it potentially provides a warm meal if one is so desired.  But those extra miles still had to be pedaled, even if the time isn't included in the books.  What about starting at Loma?  I'm leaning toward a Loma start for a variety of reasons, and that would mean that the "prologue" miles would actually be cool-down miles.  That feels a bit like cheating.  Anyone have any thoughts on this?

My other internal debate is on the traditional Bedrock route versus the infamous Koski Traverse.  This time around, I'm taking on this beast in full-on race mode instead of using it as my introduction to multi-day racing like I did a couple years ago.  So far, Stefan is the only one who has tried to set a fast time via the official Paradox Trail and skipped Bedrock.  So much of the draw of this course is its incredibly remote nature.  Sure, you cross a few paved roads and can see the interstate from the KT, but once you leave Dewey and climb away from the Colorado, you are completely out there until the Paradox Valley, and then you're in even more remote country for another full day.  Skipping Bedrock seems more and more appealing each time I think about it, so odds are that's the route I'll take this year (assuming I can navigate my way from Long Mesa to Big Atkinson Creek...).  I guess that's my two cents on the subject, not that it should affect how anyone else decides to spend their rough, dehydrated, awe-inspiring days on the Grand Loop.

[Pivvay]

I suffer with the same dilemma Kurt, I want to sort of "repeat" my first multi day attempt which was the Bedrock route but the Koski traverse is more aesthetic. The truth is I will probably do both someday but which to do *this* year is a big question. Since Jefe did the standard way last year and he's in again from what he said earlier, perhaps the three of us will all end up doing the Koski this year?

I certainly prefer the "traditional" start from GJ if only because having the highway as cool down miles just seems silly even though I have no good reasoning for it.

[DaveH]

Kurt, I think part of what you are asking is "what is fair in terms of records".  The way I see it, it doesn't really matter how you cover the course.  It's a loop, choose your starting point however you see fit. 

The question of the untimed prologue in the traditional race format definitely clouds things.  For the sake of timing, I'd actually prefer include the GJ-Loma road section in the overall time.  That pretty much washes out any perceived advantage of having GJ as a refuel spot on the route if starting somewhere else like I did last year.  I didn't waste much time in GJ with that thought in mind.  A few have mentioned a perceived advantage of refueling in GJ, but honestly the bigger issue is having the clock "stop" while in the middle of an effort, and I did not want to take advantage of that.  I ate at micky d's and regretted it before I left the building

Or, keep the race format alive?

Koski or traditional route, that is an entirely different question.   

[frejwilk]

FWIW,

I like DH's line of reasoning with a basic difference.

I think of the GLR as a race which took part on the Grand Loop. A race held on Grand Loop yes, but a race with it's own rules, dates, and a consistent route (ie  keeping the paradox section). The organizer of that race does not seem likely to hold future GLRs. If GLR were held again, someone could attempt a GLR record.

The Grand Loop route remains and people will continue to ride it as fast as they can. For records, the simple question should be: what is the Grand Loop?

My take is that Grand Loop means connecting the three COPMOBA trails. Kokopelli, Paradox, Tabeguache. I know, it's called a loop. And I should probably research more before posting, but I do not believe COPMOBA describes any sort of connector as part of their routes.

So for me, a reasonable benchmark route would be Kokopelli trailhead to Tabeguache trailhead. Or Tabeguache to Kokopelli. Both via Koski traverse or any future changes. Simply ride the most current official edition of the three routes (excepting the parts beyond the intersections of course). People would likely keep track of records both directions, but that seems normal for most trails - loop or not.

FW