Grand Loop 2010

[ScottM]

Seems to me that records for both Koski and Bedrock route are worth keeping.  Other changes to the route are likely to be smaller in the scheme of things and perhaps canceled out by the vagaries of weather and conditions.

I do see Fred's point about the GLR (i.e. Loma to LL, Bedrock) itself not really existing.  But racing the Grand Loop, and we can all agree on the general notion of the endeavor, is still a good idea.  Err, usually.

The prologue/intermission (?)/epilogue issue is a fuzzy one for me.  I don't think DH got much benefit from starting 'mid course', but I can see how the precedent could be used to significantly change the game.  We seem to want to keep the GL as wild and away from 'town' as possible, yet if you started near the Paradox Valley, you'd have mega resupply / civilization right in the middle of the thing!  Even if your time at Walmart's grocery store is on the clock, it still changes the character of the loop.  The 'wildness' factor just plummeted -- less food carried, less risk, etc -- far more than using the Bedrock route or being forced near Nucla by a new detour.

To me that's the bigger issue about starting the loop anywhere you chose.  Though from my perspective it's less driving to start in Moab or Bedrock...

Thoughts?

[DaveH]

That is an interesting scenario that hadn't even occurred to me - makes perfect sense though.

I have no problem with it.  It sure would change the character of the ride, but that's a personal decision.  Ya can't really dictate a starting point for an ITT on a loop course, can you?

I propose that: 

1.  GLR records are separate from GL ITT records.
2.  GL ITT times are for the entire loop - no timeouts
3.  GL ITT start point is determined by the rider

By that reasoning, the GLR record is 2 days 19 hours and change, the GL ITT record is 2 days 15 hours and change and the GLR - Koski record is 2 days 23 hours and change.

What do y'all think of that? 

[dream4est]

How about someone (Scott? Dave?) take the reins from MC and announce a damn race with a date and such over the original GLR route? We all want to do it, even those who have failed multiple times!


I would be willing to bet that MC would still show up and lead the pack on the prologue regardless of who "ran" the race. I bet that a simple thread about the race here on BP.net would suffice as the "website" for the GLR. It would be a shame for this concept to only live on in ITT's.

Mark C.

[wookieone]

Ah yes the GLR, I think that someone should take the helm on this one! (I must admit I am a bit confused about the 800', are we no longer welcome to traverse that section near coal canyon? Nothing weirder than being in a backcountry mode and feel/imagine rifle crosshairs on the back of your head.) But I would like to see a nice group start on this one, no offense to those who went there own way last year, but I like tradition, start at the Lunch Loop, ride together to Loma, and race for the Gold! But that is just me. I am still interested in this, but after the whole PP/wilderness issue I started to look for another avenue for may june. Just kills me when we lose access over such a TINY bit of the whole deal. Also I believe the whole prologue thing need to be settled, I think add in the LL to Loma time to the total, so it doesn't matter when and where it is done. And damn it I want a trophy awarded to the crazy bastard that wins! Just kidding, this is one to watch....peace Jefe

I can see Glen Coe bench when I close my eyes.....ahh yeah...

[krefs]

Scott, you hit the nail on the head regarding the wilderness component of this course.  That's one of the main reasons I'd like to start at Loma (or LL) this year and skip Bedrock.  Riding the 'prologue' section in the middle would absolutely destroy the whole experience for me.  Sure, I'm ultimately going for speed, but that's not what attracts me to the GL.  Hell, I could do some ultra on the road if all I cared about was going far and fast.  But to each his own.  As much as I hate the fact that the 20 miles of pavement are required to finish up the loop, they're there, and I think that ITTs, the clock should run for the entire loop. 

So yes, then there would be the GLR record, the GL Bedrock ITT record, and the GL Koski ITT record. 

As a solution to the possible objection to someone starting elsewhere on the loop resupplying in GJ or Fruita, here's an idea:  For an ITT the GL Koski route, forbid any resupply.  Make it a truly self-supported endeavor.  It's you, your bike, calories for 360 miles, water from streams and glorious cattle tanks, and that is it. 

And bringing back the race?  This is one route that I'd prefer to tackle alone.  It's so rugged, desolate, brutal, and beautiful that my legs and my head pitted against the course is the truest of challenges.  Other racers would simply detract from it.

[wookieone]

Was that Wildness or Wilderness? I see the point of going alone, but I have done this baby twice with a few others at the start and both times I saw Scott up till Buckeye, and Matt Last year up to the La Sals, simply saw no one else except a few cars on the divide road later on. There could be a dozen starters and I bet one would still feel like the everyone else in the world was sleeping in, again one of the beauties of the Grand Loop. I still have to wonder about what do we do when we hit that section of PP vs Wilderness? Do we pretend to not know about the issue and therefor potentialy add fuel to the fire? I was freaked out a bit about that section exiting the Roubideu trail, where the sign says no hiking and horses only. When out there alone, very alone and in that weird zone of self supported racing, who wants confrontation with someone so many miles in the middle of nowhere. I just feel a bit unsure about a race, itt, whathaveyou if there is gonna be an access issue, do we as a community say F%$K it and do what we want, or be responsible and not step on any toes?  Just some thoughts of mine, sucks that this is an issue at all. That said, I support two records, bedrock, and full paradox/koski traverse, and fully support the notion of doing the whole thing no resupply, it really does make this loop so wild, hard and wonderful. ok enough of me, Jefe

[DaveH]

Jefe, interesting thoughts re: PP and wilderness.  It's easy to think with as few folks as pass through there in a year we'd make no difference, but if we stir a hornets nest it could escalate.  For sure, confrontation amidst a GL effort would surely suck.

On a different topic - let's stop right now with any sort of notion of creating rules for the Grand Loop.  Ya want to kill it for the handful of us that are still captivated by it's magic?  Accepted self support rules are fine.  We can define specific routes and what parts are timed...but more rules, um, no thanks.

[ScottM]

Yeah, I don't like the idea of a no resupply rule.  Seems silly to say you can't stop in to a gas station you're riding right by.  That's fake 'wildness.'  But if resupply is OK and speed is the goal, it seems obvious that carrying minimal food and resupplying mid race in GJ is the best way to go.  I don't really like that, so I think it should be a Loma -> Tab (or reverse) time trial.  Do whatever you want on the epilogue/prologue.

That's my 2c anyway.

As for an official race, the problem is the Moab B L M.  Remember Koko?  Similar threats were made about the last time the GLR was actually held.  I really think it needs to remain even less official than our other unofficial events.  People can throw out a date they are going to ride in this thread and others can choose to join or not.  It almost worked that way last year, and I definitely accept responsibility for fracturing it at the last minute.  I just couldn't resist going backwards, and once that decision was made there was no point starting with everyone else.  DH then followed suit, breaking it up more.

It was a bit unfortunate, but it doesn't mean things can't be a little more cohesive this year, even with no one 'at the helm.'

It's cool to see differing opinions on some of this stuff.  One thing is for sure -- we can continue to list any self-supported completions on BP's GL page, regardless of direction, start place / time, et cetera.  I'm OK with it being a little chaotic, perhaps wild and undefined itself?

[DaveH]

It was a bit unfortunate, but it doesn't mean things can't be a little more cohesive this year, even with no one 'at the helm.'

No one, yet everyone.  Group think.  I've long had that notion as an idea to circumvent creating targets for the authorities.  GLR, KTR might be able to live on in such a way...

It's cool to see differing opinions on some of this stuff.  One thing is for sure -- we can continue to list any self-supported completions on BP's GL page, regardless of direction, start place / time, et cetera.  I'm OK with it being a little chaotic, perhaps wild and undefined itself?

It's a good thing!  Everyone that has posted as a slightly different idea of how it should be.

[wookieone]

I wasn't really trying to add/subtract rules....I am a bit of an anarchist at heart, just love the idea of no chance to resupply, really puts your planning to the test. No really, no more rules!!! And it makes sense to stay below the radar as well, but I do believe that the LL to Loma should be added to the overall time, no matter where it occurs in relation to the loop, but other than that, keep it wild.
Does anyone else have thoughts about the whole access issue? Just curious, I have been playing with the idea of putting together a mulit day race right here in Gunnison Valley, but I keep finding my map curser following underground/pirate/closed trails, cause they happen to go where I want the course to go, but can I/we send folks out(by there own volition of course) into areas that may cause trouble or leave them in an uncomfortable spot or leave us MTB'ers looking like selfish A-Holes? Just wondering.....jefe

[krefs]

Jefe, I've been pondering the same issue of running one of these unofficial races in the Front Range, but the required connections and some of the best trails that I'd want to use are unofficial.  I'm reluctant to share these with anyone by my best riding buddies, so I don't think I can bring myself to send anyone on those trails, going flat out in race mode, putting themselves, the trails, and the local cycling community at risk if anything goes wrong or conflicts arise.  It sucks, but better safe than sorry.

[DaveH]

Hey Jefe - just to be clear I wasn't directing the no rules comment directly at you.  It was at *us* as a group...ahem.

We need more info on the GL specific access issue.  Koski is probably the best guy to help us debunk that one.

As for creating new routes:  it is my (strong) opinion that routes must be known to be publicly accessible if you are going to invite others to toe the line.  There is a remote 2 mile section of dirt road linking 2 key pieces of my Trans Utah route, for example.  The past 2 years this little bit of private property access has had me altering the route by as many as 80 miles!

The beauty of these homebuilt routes is that you can just show up and ride new territory.  If there are private property issues to deal with in the route, then we really haven't provided a reasonable route.

Of course I'm also highly in favor of letting one's creativity run amok.  Events like that silly thing in Alaska DaveC did awhile back, where there are checkpoints but no established route or even required mode of transportation are particularly interesting as well.  Maybe a combination of the two...hint hint...

[timroz]

Is the COPMOBA Paradox map not good?  The first time I did Tab and Koko it was 100% based on those maps and cues.  The Tab map was painful to follow but doable, but that was 10 years ago.  I'm planning on using the Paradox and Tab maps as a basis for a GPS route for the GL.

Edit - I see now.  800' of private property or the 18.9 mile Nucla detour.  Is the COPMOBA map going to change before May to reflect this?

[DaveH]

It's fine.  Not finely detailed but should get the job done. 

I just had a browse over at copmoba and they don't have any warnings or alerts regarding private property issues on the Paradox.  Maybe that will change as spring springs.

[ScottM]

Koski did mention that he was putting info about the PP issue on a new kiosk -- not sure where that kiosk is going.  I don't know if it'll go on the maps or not.

I'm curious whether it's actually signed out there, or gated, or?

I agree with Dave, any new route should be 100% public to the best of your knowledge.  That issue is stalling my winter bikepack route down here in Tucson.  Need to research and verify a couple spots before I would feel good about sending other people out on it.

[timroz]

I would like to be able to show "the man" a current COPMOBA map if it came down to it.  I'm a bit mental when it comes to fence hopping, it really bothers me.  But if the trail is on the map I'd feel better.  If I see it on the kiosk at the trailhead to avoid the PP I'll just do the Nucla detour.  No biggie.  I'm not chasing records.

[dwj]

Ah yes the GLR, I think that someone should take the helm on this one! (I must admit I am a bit confused about the 800', are we no longer welcome to traverse that section near coal canyon? Nothing weirder than being in a backcountry mode and feel/imagine rifle crosshairs on the back of your head.) But I would like to see a nice group start on this one, no offense to those who went there own way last year, but I like tradition, start at the Lunch Loop, ride together to Loma, and race for the Gold! But that is just me. I am still interested in this, but after the whole PP/wilderness issue I started to look for another avenue for may june. Just kills me when we lose access over such a TINY bit of the whole deal. Also I believe the whole prologue thing need to be settled, I think add in the LL to Loma time to the total, so it doesn't matter when and where it is done. And damn it I want a trophy awarded to the crazy bastard that wins! Just kidding, this is one to watch....peace Jefe

I can see Glen Coe bench when I close my eyes.....ahh yeah...

i'm with jefe all the way on this one. i was "IN" for sure until the whole land issue deal. i'm racing the Growler at the end of may so i was hoping for an early june GL, but it seems that doing something a little less complicated might be in order.

[prkoski]

I've enjoyed reading all the chatter about this year's GL. I have to admire you all for even attempting it. Here's the official dope on this trespass issue along the Paradox. COPMOBA or BLM cannot promote the trail going onto someone's private property when they have told the Feds they want no one one it. That being said, the official BLM map (Nucla Section 1:100,000) clearly shows the trail/road. Whether it gets onto deeded ground is not the issue. Anyone is free to ride that trail. Will there be a mad cowboy waiting with a shotgun? I doubt it as much as there will be a BLM offical waiting to ticket anyone walking their bike across that 800' of boundary line. That area by the way is a sage brush flat at the bottom of that knarly pitch which I've walked more than once. I'm currently talking with the BLM folks about allowing a boundary hiking trail as an alternate proposal. Barb Sharrows immediate response was, "Do you think anyone will really carry their bikes throught there?" She's willing to consider the idea though... Stay tuned.
The kiosks at Naturita, Uravan and up at Buckeye will post the advisory on this issue but will also explain the 1000' of trespass and where it is. I hope most riders will decide for themselves the most practical course to take.
PK

[Carney]

Anybody know of any lightweight snowshoes? 

[timroz]

The meaning of Tabeguache is "place where the snow melts first".

I always thought this was funny.

It seems to me to be the place where the snow melts last.

All my trips there have been in October.  Beautiful during aspen season.