IMHO there is a real problem with Ultra Racing

[Matt Schiff]

I think this is a fair topic.  Sleep deprivation is definitely not good for the health, long term.  And it *is* a major reason that people who really push it and go for records sometimes do not return -- or pick their races very carefully.  This sport has seen many strong riders that have stepped away, sometimes not by choice, or because they are tired of paying the huge recovery cost post-race.

Interesting to think about whether the races need to be sustainable? Can they not be great, wonderful, adventures that push you like nothing else ever has, and you don't go back to them? Given my limited experience, it's hard to imagine a 4 hr safety break would change too much in terms of the recovery but probably would keeps peoples minds a littler straighter, at the cost of slightly less adventure. 20 hrs of riding is a ton of riding. Break for 6 hours and you'll have to give me something just to stay asleep. I think it's more about cutting down the riding hours, than actually sleeping to make it sustainable, but then you're talking about a different race.

I started the Coconino race in the stage format for this reason.  It was an attempt to make it more fun, perhaps a bit more safe and certainly more sustainable.

Super fun! Funny how most of us are so resistant to change. But still a very different race experience.

As the RD of AZTR (and de facto, semi-RD of TD) I have seen some poor decisions being made by racers and have to wonder if sleep dep has played a role.  It's hard to say, but it is pretty well documented that our decision making suffers without sleep, especially when presented with new or unexpected situations (like a crash, or other mishap).

You definitely have to manage yourself. One of the reasons I didn't roll with a spot tracker some years of racing was I didn't want to get in over my head and have help just a push button away. Take small steps to discover your limits and you'll probably keep yourself safer.

[Ailuropoda]

Man...I don't think stopping and resting is going to be a problem for me.  I'm planning to race but I'm also realistic and am approaching the Tour Divide with humility and an open mind.

But the top guys?  If they want to ride without rest I'd hate to try to enforce some arbitrary rule on them.  Clearly they can ride and ride without much rest. 

[wookieone]

To me what is so cool about ultra racing is that there is a course, some very basic self supported rules and the human body/mind to tackle it. We sanitize everything in this world to make it safe. I don't race ultras to be "safe" but to challenge myself, test myself and see what I am capable of and what I am made of.
There are stage races, 24 hour races, there is RAAM, randoneering races, etc. There are plenty of places and formats where you can recover and go fast, get sleep and be managed. That isn't what ultra racing is about. Sure you can "chose" to sleep and go at your own pace, that is cool too, but don't tell me I have to stop and sleep when I want to ride all night. Besides it is so wild to watch guys and gals with different skill sets taking on the same course under the same rules. Some go fast and sleep, some go slow and don't sleep and a very few go fast and don't sleep. It is amazing what the human body can do and we are still testing the limits and that is very inspiring.
Don't water it down, we the participants make the choice to enter these events and we make the choices every minute we are out there that keep us moving and healthy or not, that is part of these experiences. If you want to sleep and rest, then do so, but don't tell me I have to too.
Jefe

[joeydurango]

I'm with Jefe.  Well said.

[Matt Schiff]

... from my cold, dead hands. 

[KootenayB]

There isn't a real problem with ultra racing.

Ultra racing is simple - start at Point A at Time X, don't cheat, don't be an ass, and finish at Point B at Time Y.

The issue isn't ultra racing, but is with the personal biases one brings to it.  I too would stack up better against others' in a scenario where there is a mandatory daily rest period, a no night riding rule, etc., so it would be to my advantage to compete in this type of race.  Better yet, can you find me a 5-day ultra with a daily 100-mile long continuous 10% climb and a 6-hour mandatory rest period so that I can take the greatest personal advantage that my ectomorph physique provides?

But then, what would be the real point?

The real point would be to pad my ego.  As a person who suffers from TCS (Time Comparison Syndrome), I understand that I seek personal validation through "how I measure up".  Oh, and there are so many ways to manipulate time splits, Strava segments, race formats, etc. to support "my awesomeness", but it all is self-serving and destructive in actuality.

Perhaps the point is this:  ultra races exist, and if you choose to ride one do so in a manner that brings you the greatest personal satisfaction.  If it is to set a low total time, a fast moving average, etc. that you can compare to others, and that is what truly makes you feel best, then go for it.  If it is to ride only how you feel at any given moment, to smell the daisies and to run naked through the fields with the deer, and that is what truly makes you feel best, then go for it.  Either way, or anything between, is good.

And that is why there isn't a real problem with ultra racing.

[Adam Alphabet]

Excellent topic.... my 2 cents.

What venue in our lives, in this hyper safe and sanitized time we live in do we truly get to push the mind and body to their ultimate potential. This is what has drawn me to ultra racing for years and has been the reason I have only recently began participating in these events...Out of respect to the events and myself, to become sufficiently prepared to handle these events. These are among the hardest bike rides in the world, participate in whatever capacity you feel comfortable in doing so. But one must have respect and knowledge of themselves and the event going in. The romanticism of ultra's is very real, but just like everything....maybe they're not for everyone, or maybe how the top riders participate isn't how everyone should aspire to participate. Ride your own ride, Do you, be safe and challenge yourself.

A huge part of the draw of these events to me is the multi-faceted skill set required. One, I compete against myself only. I am not the fastest bike racer by any means but I have a uniquely strong skill set that I want to challenge. I'm a very experienced bike packer/tourer with meticulous organizational skills, great technical riding ability and a strong will. I want to see what I am made of both mentally and physically by combining my strengths and working on my weaknesses.

Sleep deprivation is one of the most intriguing parts of these races for me. I am very in tune with my mind and body and look forward to challenging myself further. Last weekend my total stopped time on the AZT 300 was 4h2min, comparable to the fastest guys. They're way faster riders than me but I know I wasn't messing around out there. I had sections and splits that were among the fastest on route. I knew what I put in to that race and am very proud of the whole effort; the combined sum of my strategy, effort, rest management, nutrition plan, gear selection, technical riding ability, ability to stay in control when mind and body were completely separated floating down the trail as two separate beings. I ride my bike all the time and it's fun, I bikepack often and it's also fun. A couple times a year I really get to push my mind and body and explore to a level I never have. That's what Ultra Racing it's all about for me. Again, maybe it's not for everyone but for those who are seeking this sort of challenge and exploration let's keep it raw and keep the responsibility to oneself as to how they want to push themselves.
Great discussion here with some of the worlds best ultra athletes, we're privileged to have such insight!

[Ailuropoda]

Hey, sleep deprivation sucks.   I was a medical student and a resident and am very familiar with being exhausted all the time.    I want to assure the OP that I will not be purposefully depriving myself of sleep and my gear set up is oriented towards making the best effort possible to get adequate sleep.

I went through Marine Corps basic training many years ago, too, and no matter how hard they worked us and how exhausted we were at the end of the day we always got eight solid hours of sleep a night.    The "waking you up in the middle of the night to fuck with you thing" is a myth.  The Marine Corps knows the value of sleep in training.   

Whether I will get good sleep on the race or not remains to be seen but I look at the sleeping kit of the top Tour Divide racers and I know that I don't want quite that level of misery.  But it's still just a casual, unofficial race so I'd hate to put too many rules on anybody.  It does not personally bother me that the top finishers will drive themselves to the point of exhaustion every day.  That's why I admire them...for their physical courage and determination.

[the tortoise]

The body of evidence coming out about extreme athletic participation and it's negative health consequences is disturbing. In ultra running after a few years of peaking many of the athletes are never the same and some have serious health issues.
I heard that one of the TD winners had to be hospitalized after the race because his body was eating away at itself. The Dr. told him he had to take several years away from that type of effort.
Do I want to make rules against people pushing themselves over the edge?? No, as long as they know and accept the risks. I think the real problem is that many of them don't know about the potential long term health risks of pushing oneself to these extremes.
I organize the Julian Bikepack Challenge and in the future we will require an 8 hour layover between loops. You can push yourself for up to 30 to 40 hours on the loops so there is still the opportunity for trashing yourself if you should choose to do so.

[aarond]

Except elite ultra runners take less than 24 hours to finish
most 100 mile runs, so sleep dep isn't the reason for
Short longevity of ultra runners.  Neil b smoked the azt
And still managed to sleep.  But, sleep dep is also one of
The most common forms of torture, so it will be interesting
To see how the Julian races do.

[the tortoise]

I think sleep deprivation can be dangerous too and not just for safety reasons but when you combine that with an intense physical activity for days on end I am of the opinion that it cannot be healthy long term. My efforts tend to be steady where I am not taxing my system. At 63 I am not interested in pushing my heart very hard.
But if someone wants to go for it that is their option, but go in with some information.
I love watching wingsuit videos but you wouldn't catch me dead trying it!

[tanadog]

The bikepacking events in New Zealand that I have participated in all have either 4 or 6 hr layovers in a 24 hr period. The 4 hr layover is no big deal, it doesn't really affect too much, other than it does add another layer of strategy. The 6 hour can be a pain, as you tend to do all your sleeping, eating and maintenance in that window and then just ride harder during the day...it's a system that tends to favour the riders with a higher speed, rather than the ones that can churn out the hours....also you can get sucked into the idea that you shouldn't stop for MORE than the designated layover, so some folks get worn down that way too.

I'm over to do the TD this year and looking forward to the freedom of a non-regulated day. I'm guessing I'll be stopping for a minimum of 4 hrs a night and sometimes more than 6, but I like that I get to choose.

[bpeschka]

I love watching wingsuit videos but you wouldn't catch me dead trying it!

... or maybe we would. 

[Payton MacDonald]

OTS is real.  There was a good article about that recently in Outside. 

I tried racing the TD in 2014 and dropped out after five days because I wasn't digging the race format.  The other racers were wonderful people, but I just couldn't find the motivation to try to catch them.  Maybe it's because in my career there is so much competition that when I get out there in the wilderness I'm looking for something different. Ultimately it's a very personal decision but I think it's better to keep the tour divide as it is. A lot of people enjoy racing and it has a lot of spiritual and emotional value for them and that's a beautiful thing.  If they push to the point that they get hurt, well, it might be worth it for them. 

  I've pushed myself to upwards of 19 hours a day in the saddle in the past, but always in the context of touring.  If the intensity of a race is more than someone wants to take on I would suggest just touring a route, which was what the TD for example was originally designed for anyway. Then you can push yourself as hard as you want and it really remains rather pure in the sense that it's all about you and the moment and what you want to experience and no one is watching or cares. But, you can also stop at someone's house and enjoy a nice dinner and meet some of the lovely people who live along the Route. Personally, I love great food and beer and I'm looking forward to doing that this summer when I ride the Divide at a touring pace!

Anyway, it's an interesting topic, thanks for bringing it up.

[Ailuropoda]

One man's touring pace is another's race pace.

[HOser]

Mandatory rest stops would be too disruptive and impractical when applied in some practical situations. For example what if you're in a situation where you have to keep moving, e.g. it's cold and your sleeping bag is wet, or your food is low? Or, what if you simply want to defer rest until you get to a hotel that is 24 hours away?

Making decisions on the trail is difficult enough already without adding unnecessary and artificial complications.

[mountainjah]

This is all about fear. Fear of the unknown. Fear of how the mind reacts to the night when out there alone in the wilderness.
Bikepack racers can choose many styles to race but racing without fear while alone at night is the most pure effort one can achieve. One can literally transcend to another plane of existence in the mind, developing the strength to overcome any obstacle day or night.

Well put MC- I agree.
"fear is the price you pay to be allowed into nature’s VIP lounge." Hendri Coetzee

[eec]

Another option could be that 4 hours of 'rest time' be added to your time regardless of if you stopped or not.  Then crazy people can still be crazy and ride 4 days without stopping if they want, but the race format would not be encouraging it..

This is a pretty elegant solution which would not change the format, nor introduce any kind of oversight, whatsoever. In fact, it would almost purify the intention of going to such extremes, because for whatever reason, you would be forgoing an available amount of rest time every day. You'd have to ask yourself "why?". You could still crush records, just add whatever hours onto your time. You could take your time to finish, just add whatever hours onto your time. I see no reason not to do this, because with all the stories of riders falling asleep while riding, someone is going to get killed, and for what?

Anyone can make the ride as extreme or as comfortable as they see fit. To each their own. Personally, I plan to race the TD next year, with a goal of 20 days. I don't care what place that puts me in, nor do I care how that compares to anyone else. The fact that a certain number of hours would be tacked onto my overall time doesn't make any difference to how I would/will race.

Great topic.

[dirtvato]

I talked a bit with Joey about this post shortly after the AZTR this year.  We agreed that ultra racing is fundamentally a pretty bad thing to do to one's body.  I think that is a simple baseline that most people who have experienced such an event will agree with.  I know I'm just beating on the same drum as others, but the freedom to approach an event with the simple expectation to do it by myself, be nice to other people, get from A to B and then pat yourself on the back, is what draws me to participate in these crazy things. I'm no speedster for sure. Both years I did the AZT, I rode on and off though with people who were obviously faster than me.  I remained occasionally in their presence simply because I didn't sleep as much. I didn't want to sleep more than I did, and certainly can't imagine ever being told that I need to. I'm not "racing" per se, but extrapolated to those that do, taking away the advantage of being able to sleep less is a silly proposition. It is just another legal performance enhancer.
I'm glad that Mark pointed out the other-worldly experience that riding late into the night is, that can't be had otherwise.  It's worth something to me. It's part of my expectation from the start.
I see this post for the simple academic discussion that it is, a good starting place for an opinion puke for sure! I do think the topic has real value though, in that it brings to mind the real potential for underground racing to become not so unofficial. That would suck of course. On the other hand I guess, if someone tries to impose more rules due to perceived liability, need to be big brother or whatever, others will simply create other underground races that are even further underground
Todd