Racing or Riding the TD?

[JayP]

A question to ask yourself as I question all of you that are on the list of this years TD.

Sorry I need to express this but I have a lot of passion for this route and respect the reasoning for the "common date" of the Tour Divide and want everyone to be successful with there ride, nor do I want to see the "common date" disappear.
Keep this in mind; the date was originally established for people to get together and challenge themselves to the fastest time of the route. Not to get together and "tour" the route. Things have evolved quite a bit but maybe it's time to just reevaluate and give it the respect to keep it's original intent.
Things one should ask themselves:
- Are you reasonable with the expectations of yourself to put down a fast time? Seriously....
- Is this your first bikepacking trip? I hope not.
- Are you lining up to be a "me too" person? Wrong reason, especially if you don't make the cutoffs. It has to be a passion.
- Would you do this on your own as a time trial? It's how it was created...
- Do you have plans or hopes to ride with someone? Then tour it on your own time, it will be much more enjoyable.
- Do you study everyone elses kits and systems or did you learn for yourself and what works for you? What works for me does not work for you.

A few other things to remember:
- The route will always be there and there are better times to start then the "racing" time.
- This is suppose to be a backcoutry wilderness type of ride. Really, you want to be around 100 other people, sounds like a party ride. Not the intention. Do it with your buddys and a keg.
- Not suppose to be a social event it is a race. Go fast or go home.

I have a lot of other things I can say, babble about, and give you my opinion on that you don't care about but maybe some of you get the point. I want to see everyone make it to Antelope Wells and many people don't cause they entered the pressure of the "racing" date and they quickly realize how hard it is and then they realize it is not for them and they are not having a good time and then never make it. I also don't want to see any mishaps or see some sort of political mess tie in with the forest service, adjacent land owners etc. The route can certainly handle the 100 rider impact that is scheduled for this year but all at once has a lot of other social impacts as well as false feelings of what the route really is.
I am not trying to discourage anybody but just throwing some things out there to think about.
Looking forward to my ITT this fall and wish everyone who puts wheels on the route the greatest of times.
Cheers,
JayP

[Done]

I'm probably going to get by head bitten off for sticking it out. But I can't help myself--I must be a glutton for punishment. But here goes:

JayP, your adventures are fun to watch, and you are an inspiring rider. Unfortunately, I think that you are being a little harsh on people who aren't as skilled and dedicated as you are. Had I strictly applied your "TD entry requirements" to myself last year, I wouldn't have lined up for the CTR--and I would have missed out on one of the best adventures that I've had in many years. In fact, I doubt that I'd ever qualify to ride the TD by your standards--if for no other reason than I'll never be able to "put down a fast time" compared to elite riders like you. For that matter, I doubt that more than a 5-10 riders would be able to hurdle the bar that you set.

While you state that you aren't trying to discourage anyone, you are, in fact, doing precisely that. While I think that I understand part of your intentions, which is to prevent so many people from showing up that it becomes politically complicated, I really think that you're setting the bar too high. Specifically, I think that it's OK for riders to study each other's kits--and everyone, even veterans--has done so since the inception of this sport. Further, I think that the camaraderie of group starts is a good thing--and again, even old-school veterans have forged many long-term friendships this way. Lastly, who really cares whether it's someone's first or 100th bikepacking trip? The CTR was my first, and, honestly, I don't personally see much reason to bikepack unless I'm racing. So much so, that my second bikepacking trip will be my second race! I'm guessing that this bothers you, but I'm not sure why.

I'm sorry, I can't help but take a little offense at your post. I'd like to race the TD in the coming years, and it kind of bums me out that it appears that you probably would rather not see guys like me out there. I may not be able to match your pace, but ultra-racing is a mind- and soul-expanding experience for me, and I treasure the friendships that I made on the trail. From the fastest rider, to the very slowest, I respect the effort and commitment of everyone who races with integrity and passion--regardless of what brought them into the game. I say live and let live.

[JayP]

Toby, I was ready for my head to be bitten off that's why I put it out there...just something I've been thinking about, for a long time, when I see the amount of people on that TD list, coupled with some of the conversations/questions being asked on the long TD thread here.

Sorry you took offense to this, not my intention. The intention is to make people think about what they are lining up to do and if one is confident in what they are doing they will not be discouraged.

I'm not sure I wrote down any "TD entry requirements", I did suggest some questions to propel thinking.

I love camaraderie and group starts too, as well as making friends, but I also think that is where it gets tricky with this "common date". We loose it's intention and it all of a sudden makes it very comfortable for any and everyone to line up and that is no good. 100 this year, what, maybe 200 next......

I don't care how many bikepacking trips one has taken but can only hope people are setting themselves up for success not failure.

You my friend sound confident in what you are doing, keep it up, and what you are doing is preparing you for the TD.

What bothers me is the amount of people that show up and then are out in a few days due to being ill prepared or a bit of ignorance for not realizing what they were getting into.

As I mentioned, don't want to see this common date disappear. It is very fun to watch the racers race and everyone pays attention to them but when it comes to the touring (back of the pack) person, honestly, other then the people that know them follow them. Yep, a bit harsh but true.

I will say one more thing. I live very close to the route and come across many Divide cyclist and they are the happiest people I see enjoying so much of the route and I feel there are many TD cyclist that would be best off doing it that way. I constantly encourage touring the route I don't encourage racing it, that is something that should come within.

Happy Bikepacking!

[elitheknife]

Well said Jay.

I cannot help but agree with you in almost all respects. 

The Great Divide Route is an amazing experience.  I toured the entire route in 2008, and it was one of the greatest experiences of my life, no doubt.  I've even had thoughts of attempting an ITT, now that I have significantly more bikepacking experience under my belt.  In my opinion, your comment about seasonal timing of the ride is significant.  The Grand Depart date is very early, and there are, again in my opinion, much better times to ride the route.  Setting up a group tour of the route in early Fall would be amazing.

Also, as a resident of Banff, the rapid growth of the TD has a frightening impact on our tiny community.  With only one 'real' bike shop in town, 100 riders will undoubtedly overwhelm the staff at the shop.  I know the owner has his concerns.  Smaller resupply points, like Boulton store for instance, on the route will also suffer.  While I'm sure that they appreciate the business, having a month's worth in a matter of hours must be scary.  This also affects racers, if you are counting on a service to exist, and upon your arrival, you find the stock pillaged by racers in front of you.  Food for thought (no pun intended).  I won't comment on the concerns that exist within Parks Canada, as I am not well enough informed, though I certainly know they exist. 

I will forever support Divide racing, as I feel that there is something out there that cannot be found anywhere else, but I certainly hope that the popularity of the TD plateaus, and soon.

I appreciate that this topic was raised on this forum, as it seems to be the elephant in the TD room.  I also think that one should consider doing a bit of touring on the route before attempting to race it.  I know that I will, if I ever do attempt an ITT, have a lot more confidence in myself and what to expect, now that I have physically seen the route with my own eyes and tires.  There are many sections that deserve the attention that is paid to them in Divide lore, and there are others that I feel get overlooked.

I'm not certain what I've accomplished with this post, but I'm definitely excited to hear others' opinions.

Scott

[Done]

Thanks for not spearing me, JayP. This is actually a pretty interesting topic, and I'm delighted that we've managed to swap posts without spilling any blood!

I absolutely share your concern for keeping races manageable enough that the "authorities" don't shut them down. At some point, large groups of people attract attention, and then things get complicated. The Kokopelli Trail Race was such a casualty (although I'm trying to resurrect it; but that's a different topic). But I disagree with your criteria for discouraging people from competing.

Personally, I'm all for favor of someone taking on a challenge and then failing spectacularly! If they are out there to see how much they can hack, then they found what they were looking for, right? They will then either run away happily defeated, or come back stronger to try again. Repeat as necessary for maximum satisfaction! The only time that I'd draw a line is if their failure endangers someone else's health or life --which could easily occur in extreme mountain conditions, but isn't terribly likely on the TD or CTR.

You state that it's fun to watch the leaders, and that nobody cares about the guys at the back of the pack. Huh? The TD isn't a made-for-TV spectator event. Isn't it a made-for-the-rider path to self-discovery! I've watched guys in the front, and I've watched guys in the back--but it really shouldn't matter outside of my computer screen who I'm watching. And it sure and hell shouldn't be used a means of deciding who should be out there racing! "Harsh but true"? Maybe...but also kinda pointless.

For better or worse, those who perform at the highest levels tend to define the rules of a sport--regardless of what the actual definition becomes. As a top-level competitor, your opinions, JayP, carry a lot of weight. But it bugs me that you seem to be placing your own reasons for competing above the reasons of others not in your league--and thereby possibly denying people the opportunity to explore their own objectives.

Regardless of how carefully you are couching it, I think that it's pretty clear that you are doing more than making people ask questions--you are angling for specific responses. I can't tell which is more important to you: keeping the TD small and low-profile, or making it a small elite event that's more entertaining for top-level riders and spectators?

[Slowerthensnot]

I think Jay brings up some great points... mainly just really examine your reasons for being out there?

If you have met Jay in real life you would know his aim is not to make the event into some small pro type thing

1st year I attempted the divide i had no idea what i had got my self into, it may have been a blessing that bike and gear got ripped off.  However it is painful to see 1/2 the field get blown out of the water within a week

when folks email me asking about the divide i really try to push them to tour a state, or the whole route and have fun with it vs TT the route

Jay thanks for the food for thought and putting this out there!

[EMathy]

The whole Canada to Mexico offroad thing got into my head while reading a National Geographic Traveler back in 2005 or so. Maybe 2004. It wasn't the GDR route, I don't think. The folks in that article did it in a Jeep. I was working in a motorcycle dealership at the time. I hadn't done much dirtbike riding but the idea of dualsporting was making it's way through my brain, thanks to one of the mechanics (Doug Knowlton). I thought it'd be cool to do, some day, on a motorcycle. Than my cousin Scott was diagnosed with cancer, and I thought, f*ck this. I am going to do it on a motorcycle, I'm going to blow the fastest time I can find away, and I'll do it in honor of Scottie.

Hell if I didn't manage to do just that. I started with no proper gear, little to no experience and a gut full of anger. I trained my ass off, prepped, built up a burly XR600R and with 8 months of work under my belt nailed the GDR in 5 days flat, solo, in the summer of 2006.

Now I'm back but on my first two wheeled love: a bicycle. I honestly don't think I can touch the TD record in my "class" (singlespeeds). Not this year. Chris laid down one Hell of a time plus I have a full time+  job and a son now. Maybe, given the right circumstances, I could get just the right training in and take a crack at it. Regardless, I won't be lolly gagging about. My point is, I guess, is that we all have our motivators and reasons for being out there. Mine is not to "win" or beat a record in the classical sense.

But I will be racing. Racing against the other guys. Racing against myself and all the demons in my head that say I can't do this. Racing against cancer, the bastard, who has killed so many people that I love AND is taking another swing at Scottie. He just relapsed last month, 5 years after going into remission.

Touring? Touring doesn't cut it. Not for me, anyways.

JayP: We met briefly at a 18 Hours of Fruita a few years back. You and your wife laid down some damn fast times and whipped the field in the 2 person M/F class. I think you even got in the fastest lap, which was impressive considering Fish was there defending his solo title. Anyways, you're a good guy for taking up the No Idle Tour. Doing all 3 races is crazy. Doing all 3 for a cause you deeply believe in? Crazy and inspiring. Good on you!

[afie]

In fact, I doubt that I'd ever qualify to ride the TD by your standards--if for no other reason than I'll never be able to "put down a fast time" compared to elite riders like you. For that matter, I doubt that more than a 5-10 riders would be able to hurdle the bar that you set.

I think you missed his point - it's not about your absolute pace but your level of application. Jay is talking about pushing yourself to a "fast time" for your own ability - Divide racing has never been about a comparison to anyone else.

[THE LONG RANGER]

I've contemplated what JayP is throwing down quite a bit myself. I'm going for a personal best, whatever that turns out to be. It's not going to be 16 days, unless I surprise myself (and everyone in the world), but it's not going to be touring, or, "fast" touring, I'm not going to be throwing in the towel because it's snowing or the route seems impassable, or the bike breaks or whatever - I'll drag that thing with a broken arm and dysentery across the Great Basin if I need to. It's going to up before the sun, pedaling until it gets dark and passing out in a bivvy sack wherever it is I'm passing out. The goal is A.W. as fast as possible.

I'm looking at my personal training and what I've said above is being reflected in what I'm putting in: working my ass off to get faster, leaner and more efficient. The pounds and the heart rate are certainly dropping, I'm staying healthy, feeling positive, alive, happy and stoked for June. I know my personal strengths (sustained riding, climbing, high pain/annoyance threshold, love of being dirty and stinky, love of solitude) enough to leverage them.

I'm really looking forward to the mass start, but the only thing I'm competing with is the clock - it's a Time Trial and no one lining up with me is someone I'm trying to beat - they're honestly just someone else trying to same thing I'm trying and by coincidence, at the same time. Everyone is on the same team, as hippy-dippy as that sounds. Knowing me, I'll push myself to between the real leaders and the Middle of the Pack and I won't see anyone for hundreds and hundreds of miles. Just know it

My completely unresearched speculation is that the starting line in June is going to be padded with some major heavy hitting riders that are going to put in an amazing time - it's going to be quite a show. But, on the other side, it'll be padded with people who may not have trained adequately and perhaps trying to leverage a little too much of the research on their rig, thinking that's enough and not putting in enough miles.  

I forget where this was said and who had said this - but paraphrasing: at the BBQ the day before the race, I think we'll all get a good idea who's going to do what in this grand experiment The look on people's faces: fear, excitement, confusion, etc will speak volumes. I for one cannot wait to see everyone's lack of fear and over-abundance of excitement, as we all get confused at how the SPOTs work

But who knows until June - it may be that TD turns into everyone wanting to climb Everest, without first climbing something a little more introductory.

[Aidan]

Honestly, I wish the field for the TD were smaller. But, who has the right to choose whether an individual is allowed in or not? From what I've seen, keeping a spirit of open-ness has brought us to where we are. And where we are is not such a bad way to deal with the popularity the race has gained.

It would be an absolute tragedy for the race if all the dedicated people who come to ride the route lose out on their experience due to excessive numbers, especially if some of the numbers haven't put the time in to be ready for the route. And I can see various pitfalls looming ahead - some of which Jay has highlighted.

I'd certainly say that if you're not ready to ride at least 16 hours a day by yourself, for a week, then you should examine whether or not the TD is for you. If turning up to find the motel is full and you're going to have to sleep in the dirt is going to push you into behaving badly, then don't come along. If you can't deal with finding no food where you planned to buy it and having to do another 50 miles on empty, you might be in for some mismatched expectations.

I don't think speed is the absolute issue, I think the rider's ability to operate independently is. Those who can't will also not be fast, and risking ruining what we have. I hope they recognise that and deal with it by adjusting their plans or attitude.

It's going to be an interesting year, that's for sure.

[Jeff Tomassetti]

I've contemplated what JayP is throwing down quite a bit myself. I'm going for a personal best, whatever that turns out to be. It's not going to be 16 days, unless I surprise myself (and everyone in the world), but it's not going to be touring, or, "fast" touring, I'm not going to be throwing in the towel because it's snowing or the route seems impassable, or the bike breaks or whatever - I'll drag that thing with a broken arm and dysentery across the Great Basin if I need to. It's going to up before the sun, pedaling until it gets dark and passing out in a bivvy sack wherever it is I'm passing out. The goal is A.W. as fast as possible.

Justin, these are my thoughts exactly. Well said.
With so many chimps at the typewriters, many with this same dawn to dusk honest approach, some folks are gonna get to AW real fast and some will not. Results do not necessarily measure an individual's elegant commitment to the event.

[gdillon]

Good topic. 

When I heard a couple of years back that there were people at the starting line trying to figure out how to attach bags to their bikes, this caused a concern.  Maybe they had been using a different system and their bags arrived at the last minute, but it still made me wonder about readiness.

I think that anyone lining up to do a race like the TD should have a very good idea of their (and bike's) abilities.  The comment about the cutoff times seems to hold the most weight.  For the TD you need to be able to ride at or above 100 miles a day on average, right?  At one point I thought I could line up, but knowing what that 100 or so miles means has caused me to think about it less.  I read in a trip report a while back (Alan from the UK?) that if you can go out, ride back to back dirt centuries on the weekend (with plenty of climbing and throw in some wind, rain, and sleeping on the ground), and go to work on Monday with a little zip still in your legs, then you are ready to race the divide.

The "race" part of the TD should start with this level of fitness. 

[Jilleo]

Interesting discussion about the "elephant in the room." I think nearly everyone with close associations to Divide racing is concerned about the large numbers this year and the potential backlash with government authorities and also small businesses that make up the lifeline of this race. Even ACA is concerned to some extent because they want good bicycle ambassadorship on their route, and a bunch of people breaking into private property, littering, trespassing or otherwise breaking laws is certainly not good PR. This isn't to say that just because there are 100 people in a group, there are going to be a lot of bad behavior incidents. But the odds are certainly better than they used to be.

Like many veterans, I too feel a strong desire to go back to this route someday to challenge my own abilities and expectations. In my case, it would likely be an ITT effort in the late summer/fall, but still, I would hate to see the Tour Divide devolve into a "remember when" kind of an event, or a punchline.

The issue is that no one has stepped forward with a solution. The spirit of openness has allowed all of us a chance to try it, but an open-ended policy only has room for unlimited growth. However, no one can set up restrictions because technically no one runs this race, at least directly. It seems unlikely to me that the people who currently head up the organization of this race can possibly sustain it under these kind of numbers, especially given there's no entry fee and even the minimal organization has to cost a fair amount of time and money. Sadly, I think most of us are just watching and waiting to see whether TD tries to go "legit" or implodes under the weight of its own good intentions.

JayP's philosophy of keeping the original intention of Divide racing through self-policing is noble, but sadly not very realistic. As the Divide racing has gotten more popular, the overall finisher rate has only gotten better, meaning more people are showing up prepared for the rigors of this race. It is possible to set up real cut-offs and time limits, but the issue is who decides those. As other people have mentioned, and as I experienced during my few days riding with John Nobile in 2009, one person's soul-crushing race pace is another person's fast-touring pace. It's very difficult to determine where to draw the line.

Anyway, good discussion. It's good to see that others are thinking about it, too.

[chrisx]

 
a very sad day
 
find room for everyone

[BigPoppa]

So, I used to be a cop. I instructed arrested and control tactics (how to fight) at my department's academy and I was a very competitive triathlete (had sponsorships, raced at Xterra worlds, etc.)

About two years ago my patrol car was hit by a car traveling 75 MPH. Long story short, I was left walking with a limp and unable to ride my bike, run, or swim. (I was unable to return to work despite my best efforts and I was eventually forced to leave my career.)

I decided that I was not going to let anything take my life from me. I began working on my fitness again by riding my bike. As my fitness grew I found that I was able to ride distance at a moderate effort but I was unable to attain that voracious power that I used to have.

I decided that I would find races that built on my new found talent (or lack thereof). I remembered an old article that I had read in a mountain biking magazine about the GDBMR. I decided that was my goal.

I ordered my bags from Epic (Revelate) and I have spent the last year (plus) training and racing. Sure I'm not fast, but I'm passionate about my bike, being on it, and suffering.

I don't know if that qualifies me to be at the TD start line by anybody's standards but I'll be there because it's something that I need to do for me.

[Martin W]

Here here BigPoppa.
Might not qualify you in some peoples eyes who post on this forum but sure does for the majority.

Happy cycling.  

[Done]

I've been thinking about this some more.

If the objective is to reduce the number of starters so that public-land administrators don't stress out, one solution would be to have two or more start dates for popular bikepacking races. The two starts could be a few days apart, and could be divided by "intent." For example, start A could be for those who describe themselves as fast and experienced racers, while start B could be few newbies and slowpokes. Still too many riders? Add another start date!

This might not address all of the issues, but it might help. Thoughts?

[elitheknife]

Good thoughts, Toby.

To further the debate, what about doing away with 'Grand Departs' altogether?  I cannot claim this idea as entirely my own.  A few of us have been discussing this issue locally, and this has been thrown around quite a bit.  

Look at the NOBO's.  They seem to have figured it out without an official Grand Depart from AW.

I think it could be interesting to see it basically become a bunch of ITTs, and if folks felt like proposing a couple of different group starts, it's left to them to figure out.  This forum is a perfect place for such organization.  Or perhaps start a discussion forum on the official TD webpage.  It would also be an interesting way to finally find the sweet spot of departure times, rather than going on one person's opinion of when the optimal time to race the route is.  Personally, I think there is a better time than the current agreed upon Grand Depart.  

This seems like a way to maybe get back to the roots of the TD, and not have the overwhelming impact that the race may have this summer.  Just a bunch of guys and girls getting together to ride a long ways, really fast...

Scott

[THE LONG RANGER]

This seems like a way to maybe get back to the roots of the TD, and not have the overwhelming impact that the race may have this summer.  Just a bunch of guys and girls getting together to ride a long ways, really fast...

I'm currently in a coffee shop and the coffee shop has more people in it, than is going to be at the "start" line in Banff, right now. I can def. understand wanting to be nice to the Canadian Authorities, as we go through their National Park system and will go along with anyone's rational plans on how we can lower the impact of our spontaneous collective of people, all doing individual time trials that just so happen to start at the same time, but just looking at the trackleaders playbacks of the SPOT meanderings,

after day 3

, there's a spread of around 150 miles between Malliot Juane and Lantern Rouge. How much impact is that going to really be?

I think the Grand Départ really has a draw - I can potentially see knowing that there are other people on the course having a positive effect on my speed and willingness to keep going on the legal course. I think the only caveat is, "As long as no one is a real jerk about it"

But the ITT is always an option to anyone, no? And I think you're right - who says someone can't spearhead a, "TD July!" with minimal planning and prep. Although, I think there's more organization that goes on, than we may think...

[6thElement]

This year I will mostly be post holing in the TD...

At least from looking at the latest snow data up North, things aren't improving much for us yet.