Racing or Riding the TD?

[BobM]

Since when do government bureaucrats see reason? ;-) I'm only recounting some of the rumors I've heard. I have no official information so you can take it at its face value, which is to say, not worth much.

I agree!  It just seems like such a shame.  I live in a tourist area and if some large group were to hold an event here during our "shoulder season", as mid-June is in Banff, we would welcome them with banners across the streets. Hopefully Canadian bureaucrats will be astute enough to at least turn a blind eye on an event that is overwhelmingly positive for the local economy.

Bob

[wookieone]

I have to admit that JP's words hit me square, I expect it did many a TD rookie. Fact is if you haven't gone out there and done it, no on can say they are ready for it. Yet I have dreamed of this since Pete and Mike blew away what I thought was humanly possible back in, oh was that 05? I started doing the shorter stuff shortly afterword. I have learned SOOOO much since, about bikes, riding, my own head. I have hurt, cried and wished I was drinking margaritas on the beach. But I have also learned that impossible is a state of mind, we humans are capable of amazing things when we let go of self imposed limits and TRY. Yet I can not look at this challenge without doubt and fear entering my head. I don't quit, I hate the thought of it, yet I know it is quite possible, nothing can be predicted in such a long and hard endevour, except some amount of misshaps, pain, suffering etc.

Fact is we western humans live quite safe and comfy lives, we crave to take on something we can't fully wrap our heads around. Sure there are lots who are simply not even close to ready, but we never know till we actually go out there and try. I stated in the 2011 race predictions that it is nuts that so many people take on things like the CTR and TD without ever having bikepacked before. I also have to admit that the long list of grand depart'ers is a bit crazy, but it is also very inspiring to see so many folks WANTING to seek out adventure and challenge, we all know that this is an exception not the norm. Most folks never want to be cold, alone, hungry, tired and scared.

No offense to JP, but not everyone has his sort of iron confidence, or as Toby put it huge hairy balls. But that shouldn't dissuade one from trying, although I agree the TD isn't the place to start. After rereading what I just wrote I realize that there isn't an answer to this, humans do what humans do and we do not always have the judgement to back down from our own lofty goals. And maybe we are wrong, maybe the field is strong and we shall see a large contingent of finishers, seems there are some well prepped peoples. The fact is that this has exploded, with the spot tracking, the movie, the TD and the CTR have just gotten bigger every year, with even the AZT getting more starters. Can it be bad? If we racer/humans act badly, yes, if it gets more folks out there in the wonders of this world, exploring under their own power, then it is a roaring success. See you in Banff, Jefe

PS maybe we should do the grand departs in the dark morning hours, F#$K the governments, WE the people need this!!!

[Nathan Jones]

We should just make a "ride the spine" race and just crown that the world's toughest mountain bike race.  Then no one will care about the piddly ole TD anymore.

[SimonK]

I like the general idea of the staggered start (maybe with big enough gaps to allow for the smaller shops to resupply) but what about the organisers? Running it once a year is a big ask.

I used to think that some sort of self-enforced qualifying ride would be a good thing - an off-road century or on-road double century at the least. But a guy by the name of Pat Hogan turned up to last years 1100km Kiwi Brevet. The most he'd ever ridden in a day was 90km (on the road). The Brevet time-limit required him to ride at least 137km/day (largely off-road, with some really tough terrain). He only made it 80km on the first day. The next day he rode more, then more the day after that, and he finished within the 8-day limit. To me, Pat was the most amazing success story of the Brevet.

All that said, I'll probably limit the Kiwi Brevet to the first 80 riders to put their names forward next time (there were 65 last time, which felt about right). The event crosses some private land, so we have the ability to deny access - something the Tour Divide could not do.

[nyounie]

Any thoughts on what the finishing time needs to be to be considered "Racing" the divide? When does the journey just become fast touring? 

[SimonK]

The 27/31 day limit mentioned on the Tour Divide website is about right for 'racing'. But it's a mighty thin line between 'racing and 'fast touring' on a route as long as the GDMBR.

[BobM]

The 27/31 day limit mentioned on the Tour Divide website is about right for 'racing'. But it's a mighty thin line between 'racing and 'fast touring' on a route as long as the GDMBR.

The ability of the rider needs to be factored in as well.  There have been riders in past years who have finished in 26-27 days who were touring as compared to their potential and others who took 30 consecutive days of 14-16 hours racing at their best pace to finish.

[SimonK]

I guess you could add that the type of bike should be factorerd in, too (thinking of fixed gear rigs).

Probably best to focus on the dedicated racers when deciding what a 'respectable' racing time is. There will often be some overlap between the talented fast tourers and the slowest racers. I guess the line between them isn't so much thin as it is broad and fuzzy.

A lot of riders riders cross between racing and fast touring several times during the event (depending on mood and who else is around). But even when you might think you're just fast touring, you'll probably have an eye on the clock, wondering if you'll make it to a certain point within a certain time - still racing the clock. What is fast touring exactly? Is it riding at 90% of your potential or 80% or is it a 'cruise-mode' attitude? I felt I was racing most days, but still stopped to take photos and chat with locals, and ride with others - not normal racing behaviour, but I couldn't have gone much faster overall.

Having a look at the results though, there are only a very few outliers taking longer than 27/31 days, and none last year when the current definition of a competitive time was defined in the TD rules. I rode with a couple of the slower riders when doing the GDR in 2008. Stephen simply hadn't done the miles in his prep - his speed was fine, but he couldn't sustain it all day long. It was impressive that he finished at all, but I'm not sure he was 'racing' rather than just trying to complete the course in one piece. Felix had to go way off course to replace his speedo, and then had all sorts of bad luck with punctures during a storm in the Gila (he himself said it ceased to be a race at that point and was just a matter of survival). The field should be faster these days, with all the info available.

I guess the 27/31 day limit is too simple to define such a complex thing as competitive 'racing' on the Divide, but that's the nature of a limit - it's just a simple ball-park figure.

[Mathewsen]

I guess the 27/31 day limit is too simple to define such a complex thing as competitive 'racing' on the Divide, but that's the nature of a limit - it's just a simple ball-park figure.

These 'conventions' are an interesting sub-topic for discussion. FWIW, the TD method is borrowed from Grand Tour road racing where 'competitive' is defined by your peers; as finishing within a (sliding) percentage of the winner's time. The harder the stage (as judged by commissaries), the higher the finish-time 'overage' afforded the blunt end of the race. Yep it's ball-park alright for the GDMBR. For now, 'difficulty of the stage' subjectivity is applied not to the course cuz that's mostly static, it's applied to the (perceived) strength of the course record. The closer that gets to what is believed to be 'humanly possible', the more those percentages will inch up...and yes, it's confounding to use the term 'humanly possible', but hey...it's what people relate to. The fact that the men's percentage is higher (50% as opposed to 30% for women) simply indicates that women's Divide racing is a bit less evolved (for now).

Of all the comparisons, I rather like the simple aggregate GC (thru the years). No mention of course conditions that year, age, kit weight, etc. I look forward to the day the data set is 10-fold.

[robinb]

time limit 'conventions' are pretty common in alot of ultra type sports - whether it is to ensure a participants safety, logistics for the organizers, or indeed to encourage more racing than touring.  RAAM is a good example - they enforce an 'official' finishers time (you can certainly still carry on as an unofficial finisher) the interesting factor for them is when your avg speed drops below a certain number.  I believe this number is based on the fastest avg speed (ie. humanly possible) ever done which, i also believe, is how they establish the record - fastest avg speed.  This allows for alternate course, route changes etc.

[mmeiser]

First of all this makes me think... "I better do this event soon before it gets to big and popular and looses it's accessibility and quaint charm as a little known novelty".

Secondly, I'm thinking if it comes to it, the Tour Divide could always have a staggered start. Hours is all it'd take to untangle the initial mess. After that it's going to thin itself out anyway. But again I can't see it really needing a staggered start for many many years.

Just as long as it grows organically a little at a time I think it'll work itself out.

The leaders will never need to worry about waiting in line for a repair, fundamentally they're at the front of the line.

If some choose to ride in "the pelaton" then they'll also have to deal with the wait. And they'll know that.

Third, people's reasons for doing the tour divide will vary tremendously.  So far it has been fairly seasoned vetrans with quite a bit of experience, but it will attract (hopefully) people with some form of disability or another, maybe people who come from other facets of sport like ultra endurance running, professional road racing. Who knows.  BUT... here's the thing, it's no escalator ride. The trail will fundamentally sort them out. It's ability to dispell them and put them in their place should not be underestimated.

Fourth, time cut-offs... right now it's an overall. I hope in the future this will be by class. Which is to say I hope it'll have a more not less diverse crowd of people in the future. Younger, Older, pro, non-pro, disability, who knows.

I think someone once said of everest it's no elevator ride... but then again people can get so far up it they can't be brought down.  The divide is not that way. People have ample opportunity to drop out along the way.  And those rejected in the first days or weeks will act as a warning to others who are not serious.

I look at RAAM, which Jay just announced he's doing unsupported (YEAH!) and that is what i hope the tour divide doesn't become. Or if it does that it maintains an unsupported class.  The RAAM has become a beuracratic nightmare. Inaccessible to all but semi-professionals with tens of thousands of dollars, sponsors, a team of at least four is required... not to mention the sums spent on bikes.

I just hope the tour divide always remains one of those races where any odd ball with a bicycle and the time can show up and give it a try even if it does send them packing.   Even if it splits into multiple events like the paris-breast-paris vs. tour de france.

[Jeff Tomassetti]

Here is an apt quote of what Jay P. is asking:

"He who would learn to fly one day must first learn to stand and walk and run and climb and dance; one cannot fly into flying." ~Friedrich Nietzsche

[bmike-vt]

This, from the TD website:

"One of the major obstacles to conquering the Divide is simply preparing for/getting to a Start. Consequently, TD recognizes (and salutes) all attempts that fall short of completion"

and

"To some extent, we are all labeled by what we're able to achieve. But more importantly, we are defined by what we attempt. —Scott Tinley"

I get the push of this thread and the OP, but I think everyone lines up for their own reasons.


And, as to JayP, I'm really glad he's decided to do RAAM on his own, without support.
Now we don't need to start a thread titled 'Racing Awareness or Raising Awareness', as I think he's worked out the philosophical problems of campaigning for people to stop idling and throwing more carbon into the atmosphere while having two follow cars slug along behind him while he rides across country. (not to mention most likely flying to and from Alaska)

I'm now really interested in what he's doing, and will be following along.
I just wonder if he'll ride to the start of the TD from the finish of the RAAM...  

[goldenboy]

Since the race is on right now I am bumping this thread for contemplation only - it may not be appropriate to discuss it while its happening.  In the end though, the Tour Divide can be whatever the organizers wish it to be, it's their race. 

The field this year is full of talent and determination from the front to the back, in both directions.  Thank you very much participants and organizers for a fantastic race. awesome awesome awesome