Rules?

[Done]

I appreciate the efforts to improve the tone of this thread.

Unfortunately, I'm still going to stay out of it. In order to be not thought of as a troll, it seems that I must either "back up" my claims by posting specifics--or I must renounce my determination that not everyone follows and/or interprets the rules the same way. I'm not going to do the former, because I think that it's inappropriate to hassle those who have slightly different interpretations of the rules, but don't seem to be doing anything seriously wrong. And I'm not going to do the latter because it's obvious to me--even within this very thread--that some people do approach what seem to be gray areas somewhat differently. For now, I think that we're just going to disagree on this, which is OK.

I'm going to enjoy riding next summer--and I'm going to ride according to a reasonably strict interpretation of the published rules, both in letter and in spirit. And I'm not going to judge anyone who behaves differently, as long as it's not something major like taking shortcuts or breaking the law.

Thanks for the discussion. Sorry if it inadvertently frayed some nerves. Time to move on to something less controversial and caustic.

Chris, I do look forward to meeting up with you sometime. Sorry to hear about your accident--from the little that I read about, it sounds like you had a scary time. Heal well, perhaps we can share a beer when you don't have to worry about medical complications!

[Pivvay]

Sounds good Toby. If you want to reup the discussion, by all means later you should. It's hard to express feelings over the webz. Certainly I am passionate about the issue but I don't take your position personally.

The rules topic is such a bummer anyway because it 95% of the cases or more, you just have to look inside yourself to know the right answer. I pretend I was riding by myself and what would I do then? Is it incidental contact (i'll give ya a piece of my twix for your cheezy stick) or cheating (did I not bring a twix on purpose to save weight and now want to mooch yours cause I saw you carry that huge pack out of town?) 

Once I'm off the percaset then we can have the beer

[Chad B]

This is the golden rule of endurance racing:

People: please don't bring The Race down to your level--elevate yourself to the
level of The Race.  If you find yourself looking for loopholes, consider taking
another year to prepare before racing.  Most likely you'll go faster and enjoy
it more as a result.

Source: http://www.topofusion.com/azt/race-rules.php


The second rule of endurance racing, do races with singletrack  

[Pivvay]

Like Chad and Scott's races! They're haaaaaard!

[Marshal]

1

[Done]

Trail717 (Marshall?),

I have read and understood the rules--they are very straightforward in theory. But I began this thread because I was truly looking forward to discussing some apparent gray areas in an effort to better understand how people dealt with them while on the trail. It seemed like a genuinely interesting topic for this forum, and one that would help me (and other new endurance riders) avoid inadvertent missteps (both by being too strict, "No, you can't swap a Twix!," or too sloppy, "Yeah, and here's some other stuff too, because you look hungry.") I started the thread by detailing WHY I even wondered about the rules, because there seemed to be many inconsistencies in the blogs that I read. By pointing this out, I wasn't attacking anyone--just explaining why the questions even arose. In fact, I was trying really hard NOT to attack anyone, which is why I didn't link to blogs, etc. Again, I'm sorry if I offended anyone--it was absolutely not my intent, as I've tried to explain.

But I decided to bail from this forum--purely due to the rhetoric of the most active respondents. Chris and I at least seem to understand each other a little better now, and I'm looking forward to having a beer and further discussion. I really wish that you could get past the desire to call me a tone-deaf (death?) troll and pile on the bitter sarcasm. It's really not cool to keep ripping on me because my perspective differs from yours. I don't think that you are an idiot (or tone deaf, or a troll, etc.) because you don't agree with me, and I'd appreciate some friendly reciprocity.

This is my third attempt to gracefully wind down this topic. I'm really hoping that we can kill it before it gets any more personal and nasty. So please, put away the flame thrower. I expect that we may actually enjoy knowing each other in the "real" world, and I'd hate to see that possibility destroyed due to a testy exchange on a web forum...

[Chad B]

Toby,

Next time I see you on the trail, I am going to not only steal your twix but I am going to punch you.



























jk- What are we fighting about in this thread? I glanced it over and see no real reason to fight. We all like to ride bikes and drink beer (minus Scott), ergo I think we need to walk away from this thread. Moderator, can you delete this thread?

[Marshal]

1

[Pivvay]

Hey Chad,

Even though it's kind of a lame thread, i'm not really in favor of deleting it. I bet Scott can lock it if no further discussion is warranted which is probably the case.

[Chad B]

I went back though and read all the posts, I understand what Marshall is getting at now.

[Done]

As the guy who started it, I'd be more than happy if the mod decides to delete it. Not much to be gained here, aside from the first three responses.

Marshal, I'm not trying to dig--subtlety or otherwise. Really. OK? And my name is Toby Gadd, just like it says. I don't like to use handles--web anonymity seems to result in too many flames.

[Chad B]

And yes my name is Marshal Bird, thanks for tossing it out, and you are?

My guess after a quick google search:

Toby Gadd, President
Montage Graphics, Inc.
225 North Lemay Ave., Suite 8
Fort Collins, CO 80524
(970) 484-2330

[Done]

Chad,

You are correct. Amazing how easy it is to find someone when they use their real name in a forum, eh? 

I will, however, keep my SS# private. And I'll try to duck if meet anyone named "Chad" in the trail. 

Cheers,
Toby

[Chad B]

You are correct. Amazing how easy it is to find someone when they use their real name in a forum, eh? 

You seem legit.

[jonesy792]

my take: ride the course with the highest level of integrity possible trying not to take advantage of any support/assistance/whatever that would not be reasonably available to other racers.  Afterwards drink a beer (or two/three/four) and reflect on the amazing accomplishment that you have achieved.

[Done]

Legit? Well, I don't know about THAT!  

My only claim to mountain-biking fame is having published a guidebook to the Grand Junction area about fifteen years ago. In the context of this discussion, it's ironic that the semi-humorous "rules" section of that book was adopted by a couple of other entities. But I'm a ultra-racing newbie (pre-newbie, since I haven't actually competed yet?).

Alright, I'm signing off. If anyone wants to start a "Shoot Toby for his deeply subversive agenda to rob ultra-racers of their legitimacy," please feel free.

[Jilleo]

Toby, I think the emotional reaction comes from your calling out racers who are also bloggers (not a particularly large group), and then refusing to state what you mean.

As far as rules go, they did become an emotional issue in the Tour Divide this year, as you probably know. Any blantant violations were either self-disqualified or relegated. But there was a lot of muttering and even vitrol surrounding the gray-area stuff (and I agree, gray areas exist.) I heard a lot of petty complaints, including some complaining that racers "cut the course" because they saw pictures posted on the Web of people walking their bikes on a surface that obviously wasn't a road (but likely was right next to the road that was probably muddy and completely impassable.)

The gray areas exsist in how strictly you interpret the rules. It's like trying to interpret the 10 Commandments ... they seem direct, but there can be a broad view of how to follow "Thou Shalt Not Covet." Personally, I don't even know what this commandment means. Should I not covet food? Warmth? Just how strict about it do I need to be? It's my opinion that a lot of the self-supported ultraracing ethos is just as subjective.

My issue in the Tour Divide was with trail magic. I thought that any unplanned support, as long as it was absolutely unplanned, was OK. Others interpreted it more strictly, adding "no support from people I know," "no support from other racers" and even "no support that I don't pay for." These additions were put in by individual racers to clear their own conscience. They're nowhere in the rules. But something to that effect probably should be. Not because we are trying to "bring the race down to our level," but because we are geniunely unclear on how to interpret a rule that obviously has a number of different interpretations.

I think what it comes down to though, is intergrity. If you finished the race with a clear conscience, that's what matters.

[Done]

Hi Jilleo,

Thanks for the history. I actually wasn't aware of the Tour Divide issues (I apparently didn't read all the blogs!), and I can see now that my questions probably came at an unfortunate time.

I agree very much with your first sentence. My attempts to detail my thought process without singling anyone out really blew up in my face. Probably too thin of a line to attempt to draw--I certainly wouldn't do it that way again. Lesson learned, thanks for nailing it so succinctly.

You're making me think a little more about trail magic, and what approach I'll take. I think that you're spot-on about nobody wanting to diminish the race by accepting greater degrees of unplanned assistance, but I suppose that it could end up changing the dynamics pretty seriously. I think that this would be a good new thread, so that people don't have to wade through the first two pages of this one.

Thanks for the post, Jilleo. I like your style, and a truly appreciate your constructive insight. I'll trade you a Twix anytime (if it's OK with your conscience  ).

Cheers,
Toby

[Pivvay]

She likes PB cups Toby. Those will get you far with her

And yes, my rule of "take no trail magic from people I know" is my own construction, designed to eliminate all appearances, no matter how silly, that I planned to run into some random person I knew in the middle of Montana and took the race changing Twix. (a joke)

Further discussion of the trail magic and the related SPOT stalking rules is warranted however Matt should really be in on it too. I'd hate to see it go away though. For something as long as the Divide or Colorado Trail, it really is MAGIC and a little pick me up. Like the time I got my room and food comp'd just for rolling in somewhere exhausted, scared of bears and looking for a little civilization. It was just amazing. Totally unasked for or hinted at, just granted out of kindness and someone's appreciation of what I was doing.

[ScottM]

I agree that trail magic deserves its own thread and some discussion.  I do not think it has been spelled out in the rules and people take different interpretations of it.  I too would hate to see it forbidden completely, but I think we need to define some new situations (like SPOT stalking).